Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[Darkson]

Have you seen the test list Tom's on about? If not, go and look at Plasmoid's thread.

So no, Tom doesn't contradict himself at all.

[daloonieshaman]

so his comment refers to make believe not current bloodbowl
whew I thought he lost it there for a second

[GalakStarscraper]

so his comment refers to make believe not current bloodbowl
whew I thought he lost it there for a second

Didn't lose it. I was saying that despite the BBRC being dead ... Ian and I did discuss this topic and we both liked the no modifier change to the re-rolled roll both for the reduction in the other deadliness AND for the greatly increased uncertainty of if it will even work on not.

Even on the injury roll ... if no modifiers are allowed means that the majority of the time you'll go prone to use Piling On to still get a Stunned result (which is not true with the current CRP rules where you are more likely to get a KO+ than you are to get a Stunned result with Mighty Blow in play).

So its still an interest skill combo but it would carry a lot more risk to use.

Tom

[Smeborg]

I have no dog in the fight, but I offer the following:

Piling On is something of an anomaly in the current ruleset because it allows re-rolling of armour or injury rolls, when the rules had previously been carefully purged of any ability to do so. The former link between ST and P-On has also been broken, so that now a ST3 player (or lower) can use P-On as well as a ST5 or ST6 player (I liked the way stronger players were better at it in 3rd Ed). Lastly, the ability to wait and see one or both dice roll results before opting to use P-On means that downside risk to using the skill is reduced.

I would favour a revision to the P-On skill which (a) restores the link with ST, and (b) forces players to use the skill before rolling for armour. In this way, more ST4+ players would be placed prone, making the skill more disadvantageous in general play. For example:

- P-On can only be used if the player is placed prone,
- Use of P-On must be declared before rolling for armour,
- No re-rolling from the skill, but
- P-On adds ST-2 to the armour roll (or ST divided by 2, rounded down; other formulae may also work, for example based on ST difference between blocker and target).

{Under the above system, it would be possible, though by no means necessary, to make Claw and P-On mutually exclusive - i.e. you can use one or the other on armour rolls, but not both.}

[A more extreme but simple solution would be to leave the rule as it is, but to make Piling On mandatory, like Frenzy. I don't know if this would find general acceptance, but it has some kind of crazy "fluff" logic, though. Frenzy+P-On players would be truly wild, instilling fear in both coaches.]

Hope that helps.

[Darkson]

Or we can just leave it as it is...

[Smeborg]

Or we can just leave it as it is...

Indeed we could, and as I said, I have no dog in the fight.

[RogueThirteen]

I've heard so much talk about ClawPomb, that I wanted to experience it for myself. So I dusted off my Cyanide game, started a Chaos team, and went Block, Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling On for about half of the players. Some of them had Tackle as well. This is an example of the aftermath:



[Full Disclaimer: This is against the computer on Hard Setting, as I have the super old version of BB and was never able to find people online to play regularly. And I wasn't curious enough to play Chaos in the current local tabletop league. Either way, the digital version is a weak stand-in for the greatness that is tabletop. That being said, it still demonstrates the way statistics for CAS/Death can quickly break in your favor once you've got ClawPomb at work, especially if you're in a position to happily reroll KOs looking for CAS. Even against the terribly stupid computer, to actually cause CAS still tends to adhere to statistical distributions.]

That being said, I don't think ClawPomb is a problem at all. I was only able to get players on my Choas team there over the course of a lot of games on Cynanide's Campaign Storyline. In any reasonable tabletop league or tournament, there'd be no way in hell to get Block, Claw, Mighty Blow, and Piling On onto any piece that is AG3 or less (ie, all the pieces that would be trying for this route). So I guess it only becomes a concern in perpetual, never-ending leagues, where a coach can prioritize trying to level up these super-killer pieces over actually trying to win the game, which is not how the game was meant to be played anyways.

[The Dazzler II]

I played [yet another!!] Chaos team yesterday on Cyanide that was obviously going down this route. Everything was a combination of Claw/MB and no doubt PO was the 3rd skill.

No Block at all surprisingly which was a pity for him as he was playing Dwarfs at TV 1600!

This isn't BB for me - its just a smash fest.

I'll be staying well away from Perpetual Leagues from now on and sticking to small private leagues and tourneys

[Darkson]

@RogueThirteen - I did very similiar to a Wood Elf team with a halfling team against the AI - does that make Side-Step/Diving Tackle broken?

Until the AI plays even remotely like a human player, any "evidence" it gives on broken combos/broken rosters/any other bitching is useless.

[garion]

@RogueThirteen - I did very similiar to a Wood Elf team with a halfling team against the AI - does that make Side-Step/Diving Tackle broken?

Until the AI plays even remotely like a human player, any "evidence" it gives on broken combos/broken rosters/any other bitching is useless.

I agree with darkson here. AI is terrible. The grod bot has probably surpased cyanides AI now.

However the combo is still too effective at removing players from the pitch imo. Just needs toned down a bit. Or my prefered fix would be to leave it alone sand bring back traits.

What I dislike most about CRP is the lack of traits. Team building is so boring now.

I would prefer PO to be a trait except big guys can take it on singles still. I would also prefer Claw, Tentacles and Two heads to be traits out of the mutations list.

That would put it more in line with the Old - Claw + Razor Sharp Claws combo of LRB4 which required two doubles. Although the new combo would still be easier to get because there is no ageing now so you dont have to retire players all the time anymore.

Edit: Oh and bring back Igeomy, improve fouling so everyone can hurt teams, also bring back the secret weapon roll.

[Darkson]

Or my prefered fix would be to leave it alone and bring back traits.

What I dislike most about CRP is the lack of traits. Team building is so boring now.
[snip]

Edit: Oh and bring back Igeomy, improve fouling so everyone can hurt teams, also bring back the secret weapon roll.

Bingo.

[Smeborg]

Or my prefered fix would be to leave it alone and bring back traits.

What I dislike most about CRP is the lack of traits. Team building is so boring now.
[snip]

Edit: Oh and bring back Igeomy, improve fouling so everyone can hurt teams, also bring back the secret weapon roll.

Bingo.

Or we could just leave things as they are...

[Smurf]

Isn't the case when faced with a team like that you don't go toe to toe with it. A few speed teams need to speed it up.

Some teams are going to come a cropper but they may have their own skill combos taking mbclawpo combo. Which, that's 3 skills down the line and I say fair play to a decent skilled up team. The risk I have seen is when one member gets it then it leads and the others skill up more slowly.

Moreover, if you are playing in a league the league should be aware of it and start targetting players to get them off the pitch with various injuries or death.

Drestle players will spanner up the team and in addition they need their dauntless players to take on the S4 brigade. Then other teams need to use their guard players well.

But nothing is super fantastic in blood bowl.

[Oly1987]

im just going to throw in my 2 cents. I just wanna start by saying that i dont think claw is broken at all. Its fine just the way it is. The problem is without a doubt Pile On, or more specifically the amount of teams with access to CPOMB. Off the top of i worked out that nearly a third of teams have some access to cpomb. and obviously now every team have access to POMB which is still an effective combo. If Pile On was to be toned down a little i feel the whole thing would be a lot more balanced. Also agree that fouling needs a little boost to counter the cheesey bastards that do have CPOMB

[Smeborg]

From what I can see, clawpomb is only a problem in leagues which (a) are truly perpetual, (b) have a disproportionately high number of slayer teams, and (c) allow munchkin team development where results do not matter. Some of the online environments in which clawpomb teams appear to thrive have house rules which protect clawpomb players from balancing things in the standard ruleset (for example a clawpomb environment may have no Wizards, or low inducements through ranking systems, thus few chainsaws, bribes etc.). Wittingly or unwittingly, clawpomb hothouses appear to have been created.

At the same time, it would appear that in some of these environments, clawpomb teams do not do as well (in results) as certain other teams. In the tabletop environments in which I have played, I observe that where slayer teams (of which clawpomb teams are a subset) are not competing for the top slots, they are often indulging in a form of griefing (whether intentionally or not). This is not a complaint - I am happy to play against such teams. On the other hand, matches between well-coached teams, one of which is a slayer team, the other not, and both teams are competing to win the league, are often great sport, and the sort of thing that makes the game great.

Clawpomb does not appear to be a problem in racially balanced tabletop leagues using the standard ruleset. For online environments where participants believe that clawpomb is a problem, I suggest they first look at things like their house rules, racial balance and playing culture. You have to fix these first before you can determine whether clawpomb is a genuine problem in itself.