Safe Throw and Interceptions: dice order

[Darkson]

At some point, someone (or more than one) tried to make a set of "real life" passing rules, that made logical sense. Last I heard, the rules were more than 2 pages long (without any diagrams), and they still hadn't worked out how to mesh Pass block in correctly.

[Smeborg]

I believe in playing the official ruleset, no matter what. So I have always played the rule as it stands (intercept first) - at least since I became aware of the official order.

Nevertheless, I am in the camp of those who (in an ideal BB world) would prefer to see the pass worked out before the intercept attempt. The reason is that if the pass is inaccurate, then depending on scatter, it may radically alter who is in a position to intercept.

In other words, an inaccurate pass would become more difficult to intercept than an accurate one, especially if the interceptor is some distance away from the thrower. And a desperate pass (made purely to get the ball upfield, for example to an empty square) would become a bit more viable as a tactic. Plus there would be more fumbles (instead of intercepts).

I just don't like the way a pass interceptor acts like a ball magnet under the current ruleset, overriding fumbles and scatter. Resolving the fumble and scatter first seems to me more "realistic" and more interesting from the point of view of competitive play and skill. I accept that it involves more rolling of dice (I am usually the first to argue against this) but how many passes are there in a game?

[TeamTræls]

but how many passes are there in a game?

I think we see one every game, on average. Some games none, some two or even three, obviously depending on the teams playing.

[AK_Dave]

I've seen a lot of NFL and NCAA-1 passes intercepted where you scratched your head screaming "what was he thinking?" (or more colorful language). It sometimes DOES look like the intercepter is a "ball magnet" or that the thrower pitched the darned thing directly to the waiting hands of the opposing team. WTfrak?

So, yeah, I think the current rules actually handle this bit of drama. Plus they provide an opportune moment to insert some colorful language into a board game. Thats always a plus.

Seriously, sports fans, watch some NFL blooper reels on cable some time and you'll see the current BB throwing rules illustrated perfectly.

[TeamTræls]

Since I started playing Blood Bowl I also developed a slight interest in NFL. It is amazing to see Blood Bowl played out live (without spikes and knucklebracers most of the time). "Yep, that guy just blitzed the ball-carrier. Looks like he rolled two Block Dice, cuz that's gotta hurt. Yep, good Interception Roll. Block Assist right there.

It's there, all of it. Except fouling (haven't seen that one yet) and secret weapons.

[GalakStarscraper]

Well, I will put it up for a house rule. But wouldn't a poll be nice? Even if nothing comes of it? Worth giving all a chance to vote?

dpwright.

Sure ... we'll put it up for a vote when you figure out all of the following in nice easy to understand rules.

All of this is the stuff you need to create NEW rules to handle when you make the Pass roll before the Intercept roll.

1) Does Pass Block allow you to get to the intended catcher or the actual landing square.

2) If an Inaccurate Pass would go out of bounds ... when do you determine the Throw in.

2b) Depending on when you determine the throw in you need to determine when Pass Block applies there or can you even try to Pass Block a pass that becomes a crowd throw in since Pass Block doesn't work on crowd throw ins.

3) If the Pass Roll is a fumble ... can I still Pass Block?

4) If the player uses Safe Throw to have a pass not be a Fumble and instead keep the ball ... can I still Pass Block?

====

Those are good for a starter. When you figure out a way to answer all of those with rules as easy as the ones already in the rulebook ... let me know.

(by the way ... in the rulebook ... the answer is easy to all 5 of the above ... none of them happen so the answer is ... you don't have to consider any of them. Its going to be pretty tough for you to beat that in simplicity).

Galak

[AK_Dave]

Galak, I thought the sequence of things was pretty plain in the rules but now I'm scratching my ... head ... in confusion.

Here's my understanding.
1. Active coach declares a Pass action, Technically this is supposed to be done at the START of the movement of the player but what the heck it might be later.
2. Active coach declares that a throw is being made NOW, nominating both the thrower and the intended target (usually another player).
3. Opposing coach declares to use Pass Block (if available).
----- NO MORE MODEL MOVEMENT OCCURS -----
4. Opposing coach declares to roll for Intercept (if possible).
----- OPPOSING COACH IS THROUGH INTERFERING -----
4a. Active coach declares to use Safe Throw (if necessary).
5. Active coach chucks the ball: roll for the throw, reroll the throw, fumble the throw, roll safe throw, roll the catch, butterfingers the catch reroll, scatter the ball, bounce the ball, ball goes out of bounds, thrown in, etc.

So answering the above:
1. Pass Block allows you to go to any square that EITHER allows an Intercept chance or allows to put a tackle zone on the target square, usually a player. It should, though isn't well specified, allow a player to be moved to the target square of a ball thrown deliberately to an open square. It does not allow a player to move to chase an inaccurate pass or bouncing ball. Basically, the Pass Block player "reads the play" and anticipates the Thrower's action, but cannot predict the Thrower muffing it all up.

2. The ball is thrown in IMMEDIATELY upon leaving the pitch. Thats what pg13 specifies. The throw-in happens during Step 5 above, at whatever point is necessary. By this time all involved players (Thrower, Intended Reciever, Pass Block Defender) are already in position. No further movement takes place in reaction to the throw-in.

2b. Irrelevant. Pass Block movement occurs in reaction to the declaration of a pass being made, before any dice are rolled, and well before the ball leaves the thrower's hands.

3. The declaration of Pass Block should happen before the Throw roll is fumbled, and before the Intercept roll is attempted. So therefore all Pass Block movement has already been finalized by the time the ball is fumbled. Fumbling the ball does not trigger Pass Block; declaring to pass the ball triggers Pass Block.

4. Whether or not you Pass Block has nothing to do with the Thrower using Safe Throw.

[GalakStarscraper]

AK_Dave ... my questions were all aimed at dpwright specifically who wanted to move the Pass roll to BEFORE the interception roll.

The reason it all works so well as you mentioned is because when the Interception roll happens first .. none of the items I listed are an issue.

Everything you wrote was correct for how the rules work now. But that wasn't the point of the thread or dpwright's question.

Galak

[Smeborg]

Galak, please excuse me, but it looks like you are trying to make mountains out of molehills.

I can't see any problems relating to Pass Block - you allow the pass block move(s) to take place after the pass is announced (i.e. after the passer has moved, if at all) but before the pass is resolved.

Regarding scattering out of bounds, this would be no different to other times, the ball goes out of bounds as soon as it scatters off the pitch. Since the pass block moves have already been made (see above) anyone in position to do so (which may or may not include players who have made pass block moves) can attempt to catch the crowd throw-in.

This all seems quite clean from a rules point of view. Please forgive me if I have missed anything.

Hope this helps.

[dpwright]

My head hurts. I will go away and work on this and post what I can come up with here...and yes, I realise it will probably make NO difference, but it turns out this has been worthwhile discussing!

I will work on the premise of pass --- interception chance --- catch and go from there!

[dpwright]

Ok...I have tried my best. There will doubtless be moans and so on, but I am trying here!

1. Declare pass action and its intended target.

2. Pass block move made if applicable.

3. Pass roll made.

4a. If accurate, make interception roll (followed by safe throw roll if applicable). Interception successful? Turnover. Interception fails? Catch roll. Ball is either caught or scatters.

4b. If inaccurate, make interception roll (followed by safe throw roll if applicable). Interception successful? Turnover. Interception fails? Ball scatters and is caught (no turnover) OR remains on the ground (turnover).

4c. If fumbled, no interception roll is made. Ball scatters and turnover (unless safe throw, in which case the ball is retained by the thrower and there is no turnover).

Not great phrasing, I admit. Best I can do inbetween teaching at school!

[alternat]

with the actual ruleset you have one intercept every six interceptable throws (average, obviously - most of the intercept I have ever seen are 6-or-nothing rolls)

with your ruleset you reduce the chance of turnover of a 2/6 ratio (averaging the chance of fumble failure), to a 1/9 chance.

futhermore, have you consider that inaccurate pass, due to scatter, may not be interceptabile anymore? can we think that one every ten inaccurate throws may not be intercepted? interception chance roughly drops to 1/10.

in more than one hundred matches, this year and with LRB5 rules, I saw no more than eight intercepts, and I don't want to see them reduce further.

If the intercept ratio should drop, either must be made easier somehow (maybe reducing the base modificator to -1), or have to be better rewarded (with 3 spp).
But I think that the better thing to do is cope with lack of logic and keep it as it is.

[dpwright]

The point still stands that the ball is intercepted before leaving the hand under the current rules, which is...for wont of a better word...silly.

[quozl]

You can either have the current rules and have things in an un-intuitive gamey order (my preference, doesn't bother me, what kind of world has vamps playing american football anyway?) , or have things in a more sensible looking order, but play worse.

It's a game, in order to be a good, smooth playing game we accept it's not actually a simulation of american football.

[Grumbledook]

the whole game is silly ;o