Touchdown or not?!?

Korhil · Post by **Korhil** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 11:11 am

The fact you want to call the IP on someone who is 1 square away from scoring is pretty sad in itself.
I dunno if Id bother with the turn counter if all my turn involved was nudging a player to represent the TD is scored.
The way you say you called it 'straight away' means you had to have been looking for it as a last resort, and if your relying on that to win you games, it only makes sense that you'll lose.

I think the TD should be scored purely on the grounds that your being really silly about it, but since the rules say its a TD, theres nothing to even argue about is there.

Learn to play the game like a real player.

---Korhil

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 11:41 am

I resent posts like this. The coaches in my league are serious about the game. I think we are every bit as good as any other league and we have loads of fun calling IP on each other. We have no prob calling it on someone who is one square from a winning TD.

Plain and simple fact is that it's part of the game. Maybe you should quit playing wishy washy girl's league. Or do you still blubber like a baby when one of your 5 star players get's killed? Or maybe you have removed death from the game because it's not a fair way to win? Or do you give unlimited rerolls because you don't want people to cry over bad dice rolls?

Learn to play the game like a real player.

Real player? Like one that plays by the harsh rules of the game? Or a real player that changes the rules cuz somebody might get their feelings hurt if another coach points out how stupid they are. The fun comes from laughing at your friend for missing a turn. What do you do take all the "Go directly to Jail" cards out of Monopoly? No. Why would you? It's fun when your brother or Mom goes to Jail. Everyone laughs and points...at least at my house they do. Maybe at your house the card has been changed to "Go to Huggy Love Room where everyone wins?
If you are so simple that you can't remember to move your turn marker before you score, and are so fragile that you get upset because people make you play by the rules then may I suggest Candy land or Hi-Ho Cherry-O?

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:33 pm

Horses for courses. Some leagues call them as a matter of course, some leagues don't. Problem occurs when it comes up in tournies and you have a conflict of style. It's one thing calling it and ridiculing people in your regular gaming circle (if that's the way your league works), it's another doing it to a stranger. I don't call 'em. It's in the rules however, and if other people want to call them they're quite within their rights. Not so sure it's good for the the 'spirit' that most games are played with at tournies though.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:41 pm

At a tourney I think I would be more cordial. I can't imagine meeting you for the first time and then minutes later pointing at you, laughing and saying, "God, you are one pathetic loser!"

There's just some things are best left for friends.

Honestly, I don't see the difference bewteen enjoying that TD stopping IP and the foul that kills Griff Oberwald.

Tamper Magnitude · Post by **Tamper Magnitude** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:47 pm

We've never played IP in our league, always considered it a bit childish to be honest. Like's been said though, some like it some don't, I think it depends on the group you play with.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 8:16 pm

I'll confirm what others have said: In order to be called for an IP, you must have performed an action -- such as moving one or more squares. You can't call an IP on someone until they do something. In a similar example, if your opponent uses his first action to perform a block against you, calling him for an IP doesn't prevent the block from taking place -- it just ends his turn immediately after. Otherwise, it's paradoxical -- how could he have been called for an illegal procedure if he hadn't done anything yet?

As for the rule itself, it serves a valuable purpose to avoid confusion and ensure that each game is no more than 16 turns per half (not counting blitzes.) If players forget to move their turn counters, the game will never end. By giving your opponent a bonus if he calls you on it, it provides an incentive to keep both players honest.

I personally tend to remind new players for their first couple of games, then I start calling them on it. It rarely takes more than a game or two of being called for IP for even the slowest learner to improve their beginning of turn habits, and then it's rarely used thereafter.

Milo

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:10 pm

I agree with Milo on this one.

After a year and half of mostly PBeM and tabletop games against opponents that don't call IPs. It took me a while to get used to the Turn counter thing again ... I was more inclinded to move my opponent's than my own (PBeMers will understand this completely).

Fortunately AnthonyTBBF was a kind soul and so I went through the first game without really remembering the darn rule at all. Often moving the counter after a few moves. Look I didn't roll a Pow or Pow/Dodge until turn 3 of the 2nd half, I understand Anthony not grind in the hearbreak (my black dice are broken ... pretty sure of it).

So then comes my second game ... after the 2nd IP ... I started learning fast. Only forgot once more on the first turn of game 3 in the tournament.

The only reason I really wanted to slap my 2nd opponent was I was really being nice to him. He was moving figs and then taking them back even after moving to the next player after he realized that was bad positioning. So I was being a really nice guy ... then BAM! ... he calls me on an IP ... I stayed a nice guy as much as possible, but there are things that make you regret being the coach not playing strictly by the rules. My 2nd opponent was SOOOO stressed out that I finally let him do whatever to help him finish the game. At one point he put dice on the board to figure out how far all his players could move and to which squares ... I'm not sure how much sportmansship I got from him since I did get a little "grumpy" over the IP vs move/remove players issue, but I sure tried to earn them that game ...

My 3rd game my opponent conceed his last turn. I stopped him and pointed out that while it was in the really big long shot category 5 dodge rolls and a pass could get him a TD (by dodge rolls I mean the 2 and 3 TZ kinds and the pass would be Long to Long Bomb). I actually enjoyed the game more watching him try the longshot than just taking the win knowing he missed the play.

That all said. I agree with Pariah on this one. Its part of the rules of the game. I didn't like throwing rerolls to the IP calls, but they were my fault for forgetting not my opponent's for calling them. The fact that I don't play cutthroat BB doesn't mean that I don't encourage it. Its a game .. but at the end we still declare a winner. I was very cutthroat in Magic the Gathering ... had no problems tearing through a newbie like paper or uses every psych trick in the book to screw up his focus (4 digit DCI #, gold plated life counter, cards in my deck autographed personally by Richard Garfield) ... all these things helped me win and become top ranked in the state because of the mind games my opponent's did to themselves. I'm not that aggressive in Magic but then money isn't on the board usually like it was with the Magic tournaments. So I enjoy the more friendly game.

I don't think anyone calling an IP in a tournament should be looked down on ... as Pariah said ... its the rules of the game man.

Galak

Galak

CauCauCau · Post by **CauCauCau** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:25 am

Well, let me tell you all about my first game of 3rd edition. I was playing my roommate with the classic 12 orcs vs 12 humans that came with the box. We had both read the rules once or twice. We agreed that we'd waive the illegal procedure rule and just remind eachother.

Between all the looking up of rules and the excitement of the game the first half of the game ended up at 11 turns before we realised we'd been forgetting something. I was on turn 6 and he was on turn 8. We decided to start over.

This time we took a draconian approach. Call everything, watch eachother like a hawk and try to sap eachother's rerolls and cause turnovers. I got called twice, so did he. The rest of the game was just perfect. After a single game of being really picky about it, we learned to move that turn counter.

Now we play a little more relaxed. In our league, it's the player's choice if they are going to call it. What I do? Give a warning once, call the second one only if they have a reroll (otherwise give second warning) and then after that I call most of them. Though I must admit that if the coach just pulled off a brilliant move or completed a pass against all odds, I won't call it if it will cause a turnover because I like the drama of it all.

Illegal procedure did exactly what it was intended to do. It insured that we now regularly move our turncounters. In the first round/game of the league that we just started (6 players playing 3 games), we had 1 illegal procedure called and that was on the team with 3 rerolls. That player didn't forget in their second game at all.

It's the same reason you stick a cat's nose in it's urine when it pees on the carpet-- so it won't happen again. Despite the fact that people may claim IP calls are unfriendly, it's more how you call them. Gloating about how you stopped their touchdown like it was some sort of skill on your part to call an IP is unfriendly and unsportsmanlike. Politely pointing it out after the player knows full well that you will is fine.

Nathan

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:22 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:At one point he put dice on the board to figure out how far all his players could move and to which squares

I do this quite a lot. I place a die or two on the board so I know where I want to form the cage or whatever. I just find that it saves me having to count the same move 6 times.

Do coaches not like their opponent doing it?

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:13 pm

Well it just happened to me, my opponent after a hard-fought game, is about to go into the end-zone to score the winner on the last turn of th game, I look and see he has not moved the turn counter and is out of re-rolls.

We laughed and laughed that after all the stress, he bungled the win.

I didn't call it, but he knew I could have, and then spoke of this very thread.

The other players present also stated that the commish had declared weeks earlier that it is the stated intent to do something that is grounds for a IP turnover so that the 1-square touchdown turnover doesn't happen.

The funniest thing is that I am the Commish, and had forgotten. All in all I didn't mind losing that game, it was a good one.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:02 pm

Milo wrote:

I'll confirm what others have said: In order to be called for an IP, you must have performed an action -- such as moving one or more squares. You can't call an IP on someone until they do something. In a similar example, if your opponent uses his first action to perform a block against you, calling him for an IP doesn't prevent the block from taking place -- it just ends his turn immediately after. Otherwise, it's paradoxical -- how could he have been called for an illegal procedure if he hadn't done anything yet?

I'm not sure that people have considered the consequences of this interpretation. It might actually be good strategy to block one of your opponents away from your Rat Ogre before you have him take an action, for example. Trading a reroll for a one die frenzy block instead of a two die frenzy block at his choice is a big deal. The same goes for the Goblin Fanatic - you could move your player one square out of his way before you have him take his turn. A fair number of coaches would think this a good tradeoff.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:12 pm

No no no.
viewtopic.php?t=2148

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:02 pm

Thanks Deathwing. I love it when you post the relevant threads. It's very helpful. To bad that one degenerated into a discussion of Wild Animal before this could come up.

It didn't address this problem though. If that 1st player is caught in the act of moving it's one thing. If the 1st player has completed his action, with all it's attendant rolls, though, it's quite another. If your opponent is busy scratching himself or something and he doesn't realize that you didn't make the 2 die his choice block with the Wild Animal first, and you've already blocked his assist off the WA, that's too bad. IP is called for, burn the reroll, smash the remaining guy with the WA. Cheesey but that's the way it goes. Pay attention next time 'cause I'm going to do it again. If I don't need the WA this turn I might just "forget" to move him at all, assuming you don't catch it, and I'll save my reroll counter for next turn.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:48 pm

Good to see the topic has come up before, but that link did not seem to have an official answer on the subject. My point was that with Milo's interpretation, intentional Illegal Procedures are encouraged. If a player gets their action in even though there was an IP called, then I don't like the double standard between an unintentional IP and one done on purpose to free a Wild Animal. If a player gets to carry out their action even if it was an IP, then intentionally blocking a player off a Wild Animal would just be good coaching.

Now, I don't know that I like this a whole lot - but WA's are a little too underpowered as is right now.