Piling On

[Zombie]

I believe there's a poll running on this forum regarding this skill. I believe many posters favored the current version.

No doubt, since the proper choice wasn't even offered in the poll! If you really want to know about this, you'll have to make another one. Besides, the poll was about diving tackle, not pilling on (unless it was another one and i missed it).

A sliding scale might come in play at some point. Someone suggested it in a recent letter to CJ, I believe.

Actually, the sliding scale has been around for years, even longer than IGMEOY. It was invented to counter fouls back when no other measures had been proposed. It was widely distributed on the internet and has been tested for many thousands of games.

[neoliminal]

[quote="AcerakSomething like that. I think the current "I foul, and my opponent now dictates my chances of getting caught" rule is not good for the game for a number of reasons.
[/quote]

Bah, you changed your chances of getting caught by fouling. The ref is watching you. If the other team wants to play it rough, then the ref will let you two play rough, but if not, then you better be good at hiding that fouling.

Its a lot like hockey.

[Vitalis]

I started out with the 3rd ed.

Saw no problem with PiOn. Saw big problems with Fouling.

Currently PiOn is more powerful. Powerful enough to be broken?
This has not been demonstrated convincingly enough to me...

I'd prefer one of the following listed in no particular order
*) Don't touch PiOn at least for a while
*) Bring back 3rd ed rules regarding PiOn
*) Use Neoliminals suggestion: AV reroll possibility.

Having said this there IS some beauty in Aceraks suggestion.

[wesleytj]

I like everything about your rules suggestion except for one. I don't see why you have to change the ST to some arbitrary size mod.

I don't see a lot of piling on in our leagues, I don't think it's unbalanced.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
here are my 2 cents on piling on.

When I first heard about the BB2K1 piling on, I was pretty chocked. In my league it has always been considered a power skill. Making it better sounded horrible.

Never the less I introduced it to my 35 coaches in the most neutral terms, hiding my own opinion. The result was that they all thought I was a maniac. Not 1 coach wanted to see the change made.

On this board I've seen a lot of statements like: "Piling on isn't very good - it has certainly never been used in my league".
Well, if it hasn't been used then maybe you're not exactly speaking from experience.

I've also seen the statement that the old PiOn wasn't a very useful skill.
Allright - lets do some math.

Standard example. ST3 player knocks over an AV8 opponent.
Attacker has BB2K1 mighty blow. Chance of casualty: 10%
Attacker has old piling on. Chance of casualty: 12%

Sure, piling on puts you prone - but it also gives you the best chance of inflicting casualties, so that you can earn more skills.

Note that if the attacker has ST4 then thats 13.8%, and at ST5 it's 15.3%.

Fair enough you may think.
But here comes the BB2K1.
Same example.
With the new rules, piling on is better in 55%(!) of those knockdowns.
On a roll 2-5 you save going prone, as do you on a roll of 9-12.

It was a very good skill - and it got a lot better!

IMO, this has to be changed.
If nothing else, then the release of the Khemri roster with 4 mighty blow mummies makes it absolutely necessary.

But what to do?
*Keep the BB2K1 timing, but make it 3+/+2/+1 depending on size.
*Chets stun idea is also OK.
*Or - if you must - change it back to the old timing (still a very good skill).

I have another suggestion.
I always liked the fact that PiOn made it possible to hit the high AV guys.
But I hated that this also made breaking AV a "sure thing" on other players.

How about this: (BB2K1 timing - or not, since it is no longer a "modofier").
(shorthand) After knockdown and follow-up (if possible), you may place the blocking player prone. If this is done, treat the victims AV as 6.

(i.e. - usually a +1 to +3 bonus).

Martin
PS - I've just started a dwarf team. After 6 matches (1 draw, 5 wins) I've inflicted 8 casualties. 4 of these with 1 player. He scored a TD and got an MVP. Picked PiOn. Quickly made 2 cass'es. Picked mighty blow - and quickly made 2 more

[plasmoid]

OR - keep both the BB2K1 timing and the original ST modifiers.
Then admit that it's a power skill, and that piling on is to play rough.

Add to skill: "Piling on immediately gets the refs eye on you."

Martin

[Acerak]

Right now, Piling On carries a penalty for success. Unlike MB or Claw, you have to exchange some position in return for using the skill.

Now what you exchange is your standing position, which usually incapacitates you for a turn and puts you at risk to get fouled. Fine. Unfortunately, the current rules give a big advantage to a team for not retaliating, so the fear of being fouled is frequently negated.

Piling On also involves the biggest plusses to the AV rolls. Your average player gets +3, which is better than Claw, better than MB, etc. So I think that if you want to change the skill, you have a few angles you could use:

1. Change the risk. If it's too much payback for too little penalty, increase the payback. Attacking prone players is strictly illegal, so perhaps this should come with a Ref Roll or turn the Eye on you. Perhaps you could hurt yourself during the use of the skill. Perhaps you should go prone all the time ala 3E. Whatever.

2. Change the reward. ST/2 is one example, ST-1 is another, size-based bands, whatever.

So this might work:

Piling On: You may use this skill if you knocked down the opposing player without removing him from the field of play. You pile on top of the player, bringing your full weight to bear upon your defenseless opponent! Place your player prone, but do not make an armor roll for him. You may instead make a new armor roll against the opposing player, adding your ST score to the roll. Attacking a prone player is illegal, of course, so the opposing coach may immediately make a Ref Roll against your player and the Eye will shift to your team after this roll.

I think that's a fairly legit tweak of the skill - after all, attacking prone players is CLEARLY against the rules. And the skill would still have a lot of use. But Piling On has become a lot like fouling - if you ask 10 people for opinions, you'll get 11 answers.

Good luck.

-Chet

[Zombie]

Whatever you do with it, as long as you have to go down before the die is rolled, i'm happy. It's the only thing that makes sense if you think about it. We've always played it that way in my league, and we always will, no matter what the official rule says, because it makes sense that way.