Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[Tourach]

I don't have a solution to the claw+ pion + mblw OVERPOWEREDNESS, does not make it any less so.

[daloonieshaman]

you still have to roll that fabled 7 or better to break armor.

[dode74]

I don't have a solution to the claw+ pion + mblw OVERPOWEREDNESS, does not make it any less so.

Just as saying it is so doesn't make it so

[GalakStarscraper]

I don't have a solution to the claw+ pion + mblw OVERPOWEREDNESS, does not make it any less so.

In the old days ... we figured out how to deal with Piling On and Razor Sharp Claw Chaos Warrriors (+4/+2). Then we figured out how to deal with Claw / Razor Sharp Claws after Piling On was changed (+2/+2).

I look forward to the new generation figuring it out.

Tom

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
I know it's hard to not get ignored, when you pop in on page 12 of a thread, but I'll try all the same.

Galak said:

In the old days ... we figured out how to deal with Piling On and Razor Sharp Claw Chaos Warrriors (+4/+2). Then we figured out how to deal with Claw / Razor Sharp Claws after Piling On was changed (+2/+2).

True. We could use the same combo ourselves
I used to commish a league that ran 50 game seasons, and it was ruled supremely by Piling On.
More importantly, a huge weapon vs these guys (+2/+2 Dirty Player) has been removed - and wisely so.
However, they're not as easily dealt with now.

And let's not forget how they were dealt with long term:
Those rules got changed.

I'm adamant that Claw is not broken at all.
But I'm on the fence concerning the 'bash-stack' (claw + piling on + mighty blow)
One of the reasons is that of the 4 veterans whose coaching skills and analytical skills I greatly respect, 2 find the stack broken, and 2 find it to be the most dominant combo in the game.
The game works without it being changed - which is good because there is no LRB7 - but I think a house rule is probably a good idea.

If there is a problem, then it is only when all 3 stack. The combo of any 2 of them can be handled.
Maybe the problem is that when we (the community) hammered out the stats/rules for the bash skills, we wanted each one to be interesting in its own right. Perhaps that makes the stack too strong.
Consider Strong Arm and Accurate.
Nobody found it important to make Strong Arm better in any way. Accurate is univocally better!

In my analysis the problem in the stack is really piling on.
The penalty that it carries really isn't all that big - especially now that fouling has been weakened significantly.

My idea is not to monster-nerf the stack, but to tone it down a little, by toning down Piling On.
I haven't done the math, but I figure Piling On would still be situationally the best (i.e. against AV7).
So these are my suggestions.
I'd love to hear feedback on those.
For the record, only one of them are intended to be used - not a combination:

Ideas for weakening Piling On:
1. To use Piling On, the blocking player must follow up.
In other words, it would no longer work on a both down. Curbs it a little. But doesn't do much to stop bash-stacked players from hunting down developed players, who usually have block or wrestle anyway.

2. To have the option to use the Piling On reroll, the player must be placed prone before the roll.
Makes the penalty greater. Then again some people consider their basher more safe on the ground. And it does break with a basic principle of skill use.

3. Piling On can only be used on block actions.
So it could still be used to slaughter the LOS. But after that, it would be much much harder to engeneer blocks with it.

4. Piling On can only be used on blitz actions.
It would prevent the slaughter of the LOS - and start the drive on a more even footing. But it could still be used every turn on the Blitz action to target anyone - so it would work a lot like it does now.

Cheers all,
Martin

[Darkson]

Fouling should be made stronger, not nerfing of other skills.
The +1 back for the Fouling player.

[gandresch]

Hi,

my problem with Claw is, that it only works well against teams, who rely on their AV. It's a buff for all the elf teams in the world, who in my eyes were very strong before and became even better with the change of Claw.
As plasmoid said, the real problem is the fact that all three skills stack. The skills are meant to stack.
Some things to the different ideas of plasmoid:
1. That really doesn't matter to me. I think a player with PO can jump on every player that is in one of his TZ. So for me it is not important, if he could follow up or not. I don't like the idea.
2. As DT is used afterwards, there is no serious reason to forbid the usage of PO after the block is made.
3. and 4. These ideas are consequential, but i don't really like them, too

As an option to take some potential out of the skill combo, I would offer another idea:
5. As a player piles on with his body, the player is not able to use the Claw skill when using Piling On. So the second AV roll is always on the base AV and not on 8+.

I honestly don't really like that one, too. But as PO can be used on several rolls (AV and Injury), perhaps it might help, if a player has to tell before the block, which roll could be rerolled by the PO skill and which one can't - he has to decide for one roll and can't use it on both of them.

The three skills are very powerful against everything, that does not have AV7 and relies on bashing or blocking its way. I still don't know, what i don't like about the skill combo and I can't tell, what could be changed to make it better.

On more thing, that might help:
Make PO a Agility Skill

A lot of options, some of them are certainly better than others, some of them are better than the original for sure, but I can't tell if it's worth the effort.

Greets,
gan

[Corvidius]

I don't see Claw or Mighty Blow or even the reroll to armour being the problem. The injury component of Piling on is the issue for me.

I like the idea of only being able to use Piling on with a Blitz but i think it depowers it considerably, probably too far to be honest.

I'd say that Piling on is the part that needs changed. I'd also agree that fouling improving would help with it.

Here's my 2 cents worth suggestion. Piling On works on a Block or Foul to Reroll an armour roll.

Piling On as a counter to piling On. It has plusses and negatives as a fouling skill and risks a strength access player or one with a double skill.

Like i say, it's the doubled chance of injury that's most devastating to high av and low av alike. Claw basically just makes you low av.

The Injury reroll is also overpowered because you know the player is already out of action for a turn so you'll be standing up before they do. On the av roll it's more of a risk.

That's my thought anyway. But this is an old thread and not one that's likely to make a difference considering the poll results above.

[plasmoid]

Hi Corvidius,

I like the idea of only being able to use Piling on with a Blitz but i think it depowers it considerably, probably too far to be honest.

Too far for what though?
I think it'd still get taken.
I'll take my last game as an example.
Admittedly the team has just one claw + mighty + piOn player.
He blocked once and blitzed 12 times I believe.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

This has run for ages on ever BB site about, the answer is to just make PO av only, we all know it deep down, then there is no need to make DP more effective as there will be less players lying on the floor all the time.

Claw and MB stack is fine. As Chaos should be able to do serious damage. But the addition of PO does make it OP, especially when jugga and Grab both make Fend worthless.

[Darkson]

This has run for ages on ever BB site about, the answer is to just make PO av only, we all know it deep down,

In your opinion. Personally, I think it's fine "as is".

[B SIDE]

Claw is just one more good reason to play AG teams. I have no problem with it. I know it can be nasty, but it's supposed to be.

If a coach spams those killer skill combos, you're looking at a pretty big chunk of TV dedicated to the task. Induce some extra linemen to absorb the damage as best you can.

[gandresch]

Hi,

I see the problem in the PO skill, too. But what about making the skill an Agility skill and let the problem solve itself? You do not have to make any changes on the skill and not all of the players with Claw/MB can access the skill by far.

Greets,
gan

[Corvidius]

Gan, it's a sure damage dealing skill so Strength is the right area for it. It more represents the weight of a big strong player falling on you rather than them making an agile jump onto them if that makes sense.

Martin, i'm assuming that was because you had it on a Horns player, am i right? I actually think that it would either be taken enough to ensure that someone got to use it and give an overinflated tv for what it's actually doing or simply be taken on 1 player like a big guy that it would be too easy to tie up.

I've mostly seen Piling On on big guys (minos, snow trolls and rat Ogres particularly), Dwarves or Chaos Dwarves.

It may just be my dislike of skills that you pay for multiple times but can only use once a turn. It might just be a me thing.

[plasmoid]

Nope.
A BlitzRa on a Khemri team that had won the Chaos Cup.

I can only say that for 3 points of TV my team is utterly transformed.
The impact is massive!

Cheers
Martin

PS - but in the end, I'd be perfectly happy with what Garion said: Piling On only on the armor roll.
Piling On would still be best bash skill against straight AV7.
And everybody loves to beat up AV7, so I think it would still be quite popular.

[Edit] Oops, did the math proper. PiOn on armor only is too weak. Weaker than MB against everyone! Something else should be done.

Hmmm....
Perhaps it's house rule time...