Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[PorkSol]

I'm sure that this has been covered before, so can anyone recommend a thread which has a good explanation why claw/mb/piling on isn't the kind of skill combo that dominates the metagame long term?

It's currently dominating the meta on FUMBBL's competitive division, but FUMBBL switched to CRP only recently, so I'm very curious to see if a claw/mb/piling on based meta can be expected to dominate for the long term future, or if there are stronger builds out there that can be expected to take over as people understand the rules better, like everyone switching to wood elves or something. Normally a meta can be expected to shift over time as the best builds are popularized.

I kind of suspect that there are social factors (getting punched in the face) that have been holding claw/mb/piling on back a bit in tabletop, but I could certainly be wrong as my understanding of BB is limited.

[Sandwich]

Surely a good way to slightly nerf this SUPER-OP claw-MB-piling on stack (which I don't really think is needed, btw), would be to make piling on require an armour roll for the piler as well?
That way, people can use piling on, but they risk doing some damage to their precious killing machine.

I know the skill states that the player piling on gets cushioned by his opponent, but I can't imagine landing on an armoured player is particularly comforting...

[Deathwing]

Maybe this is better served being in house rules. Seems like the majority of table top players are fine with things as they stand, the 'problem' seems to be mainly apparent in the online meta-game. So maybe it should be up to those online leagues to fix what appears to be a problem in those particular environments.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think you are right Deathwing - the ability to play huge numbers of games means its easier to develop pure killers without having to worry about winning games as much as tabletop teams.

I'm not sure what the best answer is, making PO AV only was tried before and its a very weak skill that way. Another option would be to only allow one of the 3 to be used on any one roll - so you can PO or use MB or use claw, not all 3 at once, maybe just disallow other skills on the PO reroll

[GalakStarscraper]

maybe just disallow other skills on the PO reroll

I want to state very upfront so this is not misquoted ... I do not think this is a problem with the board game which is how Jervis told the BBRC to build the rules ... not to build rules for online or tournament play.

That said ... if the online gaming community where they are not allowing matching on record instead of TV (like MM and Blackbox). I agree with Ian's comment above. I think the best fix would be to add to Piling On that other damage modifers cannot be added to it.

I do NOT think that Claw+Mighty Blow is a problem. Really... really do not even in formats that change the nature of the tabletop game as wildly as MM and BlackBox do.

But the re-rolls do add another element and the problem is with that more than the modifiers.

So I'm fine for THOSE (and only THOSE) arenas house ruling Piling On so that other AV or INJ modifiers may not be used in conjuction with it (however Stunty, Thick Skull and Niggle modifiers would still apply)

That said ... I still think folks just need to learn Fend or Dirty Player a bit more. These Claw/MBlow/Piling On players are not normally going to invest in Grab or Juggernaut. So realize that and use the counters that are in the game for everyone to counter this strategy. What I've read is a lot of crying about not wanting to take Fend. I put it standard on all my LOS players ... so if this is a Meta-game issue ... than Meta-game back. And seriously ... the person that posted that those "monsters" will then take Grab or Juggernaut ... really? Add in block and that's a lot of skill loading to build this one monster.

Tom

[Coachbalrog]

I agree with Galak, after Block the next skill my Linemen get is Fend, it is just that good. Also, Claw+MB+PO is only very effective at high TVs against a small set of teams. So, if you are in MM and find that this combo is tearing your team apart, trim down your TV and rebuild with skills to defend this strategy.

[spubbbba]

Maybe this is better served being in house rules. Seems like the majority of table top players are fine with things as they stand, the 'problem' seems to be mainly apparent in the online meta-game. So maybe it should be up to those online leagues to fix what appears to be a problem in those particular environments.

Totally agree.

The issue seems to be that people are recycling players until they have 3 or 4 killers and the rest rookies to keep the TV artificially low.

As both Cyanide MM and FUMBBL's [R] and divisions are matched by TV these coaches avoid facing strong teams and get to pick on mostly new teams most of who are just starting to get some skills and lack subs.

FUMBBL's [L]eague division hasn't gone over to the new rules yet but once it does I doubt we'll see those teams often as they will do badly against a high TV teams.

[garion]

Yup this is definately a product of the open play environment and it doesnt happen in the table top leagues either.

However this does not take away from the fact that PO is definately overpowered.

The new Claw is brilliant and a fine bit of game design. There is no problem with that, chaos should be able to smash through teams armour because that is all they are about.
People may argue that Claw is broken too but it is not.

Now this isnt an attck on the new rule set because on the whole it is definately vastly improved and I think Galak et al did an amazing job in creating a rule set that got rid of all the things people used to hate (Ageing, the old niggle rules, OP DP etc...) But with the changes has come a new big problem and it is a BIG problem. PO is soo powerful once a team has 3 or 4 players with MB PO and Claw for the mutation teams the game no longer requires much thought from those teams, they can just clear the pitch with little effort which force teams playing them to try and win the game in the first half so in the second half when they have only a few players left they can just run away and hope there team isnt destroyed.

Now I keep hearing this arguement about how Fend is the answer to these PO teams and for some races they can get away with giving 4 players fend quite easily. Norse, Zons, Humans, Khemri, Undead and Necro. Now one of the problem with Frend is - it is countered with Juggernaut and grab so that makes it fairly worthless. But generally speaking these killer teams dont bother with Grab and Juggernaut anyway usually having a maximum of 1 payer on the team with either of those skills if that.

The big problem with fend is the skill is pretty useless for the vast majority of teams anyway. To have 4 players on your team with Fend (4 because that is generally the number of killers you get in killer teams) will cost your team a TV of 80 which is a huge TV hike for a skill that is pretty much worthless the rest of the game (for most races).

Lets look at an example of a team I have been runing in Black box -

High Elves - TV of 2000k
Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Side Step
Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Side Step, Guard, Tackle
Thrower - Pass, Safe Throw, Dodge, Block, Sure Hands
Lineman - Wrestle, Strip Ball
Lineman
Lineman - Block, Dodge
Catcher - Catch, Dodge, Block
Catcher - Catch, Dodge, +ST
Lineman - Kick, Block n
Lineman
Catcher - Catch, Dodge
Catcher - Catch, Dodge, Block, +AG, Leap, Strip Ball n
Lineman
RR - 4
FF - 12
Apo

Now this team is doing really well - won 23 drawn 4 lost 4. Also 10 of the games have been against killer mutation teams, another 7 have been against teams with MB PO on every player they can (teams like norse). Now the problem isn't winning, as you can see I'm perfectly capabable of that. The problem is every game is the same, I have to kick first steal the ball score in my opponents half. The second half I have to run deep into my opponents half and score a quick touch down in my second or third turn to make it 2-0. Then if you have been incredbily lucky against the PO players you might be able to get the ball again for 3-0 but the majority of the time you just end up running away after using kick to kick the ball deep into the opponents half let them score and just stay out there way. Now to me these tactics seem pretty weak, just running away for 6 turns is not very interesting or fun but it is the same every game and PO being overpowered is making the games all so similar and predictable and taking the fun out of the game for me.

Now the other issue here is where can I fit Wrestle Fend onto three of my players in this team. There is no where because all the other skills i have taken are far far more usefull. Also this team is already being hit by spirraling expenses now. So it cannot really develop much more, and it's opponents teams all have 4 PO, MB players. So I do not see how the fend arguement is avalid one because there just isn't room for a mostly useless skill when there are so many other skills that win you games. Its like you have to make a choice, pick skills that mean you win, wrestle leap strip ball or pick skills that stop PO.

[Calcium]

I must admit it is intresting to read Galak's take on the whole clawPOMB issue. I personally think the FUMBBL community is blowing it all out of proportion, but the pixel hugging there has always been on a pandemic level

Lovin the claw! Lovin BB!

[plasmoid]

IMO, Fend would be a good skill even if there was no PiOn.

And IMO - a lot of elven teams would do well to prioritize self preservation over easy cage-breaking/stellar offense.
Maybe you're not facing claw mighty blow piling on teams all the time.
But lots of teams will have one or two piling on mighty blow players.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

So 21 games of the High Elves have been against bashy races. So i think that is quite a lot of bash for elves to face and a lot of PO.

But I genuinly dont understand how fend is a good skill, (im not being funny I actually dont understand) when a player could have stand firm or side step instead. Its not as good as either of those skills. Its only real use is for negating one skill PO. Yes teams like khemri, Norse and Undead can make fairly good use of it as it helps keep their players free but apart from that I would be really interested to hear why people like this skill.

There isnt a skill on that High Elf team above I would give up for Fend because it is ineffective. It is easier to win the game in the first half then run away than it is to try and counter an overpowered skill combination and tying up these killer players with your fend players is not even that reliable in its self. There is still a 31.3% chance that the fend player will get ko'd or worse should they get knocked down. Can anyone really see any space on that high elf team for 3 or 4 fends?

Personally to me Fend is a red herring. It is something that continuously gets thrown into these threads as a way for dealing with PO being overpowered but it just doesn't cut it. There are too many other skills too take first. Score in the opponents drive lose lots of players in the process, score quickly in the second half both to get a 2-0 lead and hopefully get a few of your kos back. Then run away leaving your worst players at the front of the queue to get bashed. As you can see from my record it works and I win most of the games I play, but it is so often the case that i only have 2 players on the pitch by the end of the game not just with that team also with Skaven who i have been playing a lot with (thought you kind of expect that with skaven ) incidentally they also had a good record - 18/5/3. So it is not the winning that is the problem here it is just how every game gets played out exactly the same way and the bashy races all take exactly the same skills. Variety in skills is now very limited and all teams just seem to strive for the same 4 or 5 skills on every player.

[lunchmoney]

Slightly off topic, but.....
Fend in use.....
My player is blocked and falls over. As my opponenet cant follow up he cant us PO.
My player is blocked and doesnt fall over. If the opponent was still standing next to my player I would have to dodge away. As he isnt, I dont.

And I'm sure there are more outside the box thinking to be done with Fend.

[GalakStarscraper]

Personally to me Fend is a red herring. It is something that continuously gets thrown into these threads as a way for dealing with PO being overpowered but it just doesn't cut it. There are too many other skills too take first.

Sorry Garion ... you don't see it. I do.

My Slann team in league play had a 75% rate and I went with Fend / Wrestle on 4 of my Linemen. The idea being simple ... A) it removed the thread of Piling On on the LOS (because players with Piling On do NOT take Juggernaut or Grab in my experience as they are too busy trying to get damage modifiers) and B) it freed up my team. One of the way I excel at winning has always been to limited my opponent if possible to only a single block during his turn with his blitz action. Slann work well with that mobility of not being locked up so Fend works perfectly for me to stay free.

You don't like Fend ... good enough ... realize that others disagree with you. For us it is a counter and we see it as a good thing.

And you cannot argue both sides. If you are facing as much bash as you say you are then Fend IS of value. You cannot argue it has no value. My problem is the folks like you that throw this out mention the Juggernaut and Grab skills but the monsters you are describing don't take them.

My bottom line and I don't mind saying it. Blood Bowl was not designed to work in the severely modified rules of MM or Blackbox and that was due to direct request from JJ. JJ told the BBRC to look at tabletop league play (not artificial environments online or FTF tournament play). Those environments remove too many of the effects we put into the game on purpose to balance it. So its all about meta-gaming in those environments. If everyone you meet is grabbing rocks and even though they could also carry scissors they don't ... then I don't get the comments when you have a supply of paper at your disposal.

That's just my take. I've faced Piling On ... I had Fend on my LOS ... never saw Grab or Juggernaut ... ran rings around those teams ... win and move on.

Tom

[garion]

I agree that these killers never or rarely have grab or jugga as I said in my previous thread. I think Slann is a good example of how Fend can be usefull because if their line men get tied up they would have to make any dodge or leap rolls they want on a 3+ and that will make life easier and it keeps them mobile. I similarly mentioned Undead and Necro as good examples because their linemen are easily tied up.

But I still do not see where you can fit fend in on Elf teams where their players are so expensive. By the time you have a full roster and a few skills on each player you are entering spirraling expenses territory. Or Skaven where their linemen rarely live long enough to see a second skill. Or Lizardmen where there star players develop quite slowly and need other skills to compete against teams without clawpomb etc...

I also really like LRB6/CRP and dont want to ruffle any feathers. I guess I'm just a little suprised that you feel PO is not overpowered in combination with MB or MB Claw.

The ruleset certainly does work better on a TT environment usually because Min maxing is avoided and is harder to achieve in a TT league. Also because leagues on the whole tend not to exceed 40 games and i completely understand that you didnt write the rules for that sort of environment and neither should you have. It is first and formost a TT game to most people after all.

But there still are plenty of people that play in perpetual leagues or 50+ game leagues that feel that PO is OP.

I'm sure you met similar critisms in LRB4 when DP was 2+ etc... and after X amount of time the rules were changed. Personally that was no problem for me but I understood those people that didnt like it. In this generation of rules there is still a problem although on the whole the balance is far far greater than it has ever been in a TT environment. I just feel that if PO was changed to Av only there were be a far greater balance to the game all round. Most importantly it would encourage more diversity in team building. Because even on TT leagues there is a propensity for coaches to get this skill in combination with MB as soon as possible to maximise the damage they can cause as soon as possible and I have seen all too often one player completely clear the field almost single handedly. I also think it would make life more difficult for elves etc.. because coaches would take more tackle they would take more diving tackle more prehensile tail tentacles etc... But variety of team building is one of the best things about the game and it is something that has disapeared from the game from the majority of most teams.

[Coachbalrog]

A. This game is called Blood Bowl, if there wasn't any skills that modify injury rolls it would severely affect the whole "Blood" aspect. Piling On is a great injury skill but comes at a high cost, putting your player prone.
B. There is a skill called Dirty Player, you should have at least one on your team to make your opponent think twice about placing his players prone.
C. You have never used the "Fend" skill yet you criticize it for being useless. It is much better than it seems. On LoS linemen (High Elf or Pro Elf) I take it as a second skill after Block or Wrestle. Having 3 Fend players on the LoS instantly eliminates 3 PO or Frenzy attempts at Kick-off, this is HUGE!
D. Playing keep away at high TV values is key to the Elf game, and from your comments you are good at it - this is intended by design.

Remember, just like you think that MB+PO+Claw is overpowered; many players feel that Long Bomb at 2+ combined with Catch at 2+ is also overpowered.