Pick up a ball

[Dzerards]

5 pages! brilliant! Only three more to go and we match the Tentacles/Hypnotic Gaze debate!

+1 Greyhounds point. If you were a Vamp coach and your vamp failed a GFI into the end zone on the last turn of the half and the ball bounced to a thrall you had in the end zone in case of blood lust. If the thrall caught the ball would he not score a TD? What if the vamp failed his blood lust roll and was planning to bite said thrall and fell over before then, even if not the last turn, does the thrall still get a TD even though the Vamp has had to go to the stands? Anyway that is off topic.

This debate has come down to how do you define the time between a turnover and the end of the turn. Daloonie's stance being the turnover is the end of the turn with the maintenance as he calls it, being in between turns, based on the word immediately in the pick up rules section.

Everyone else's opinion being that the turn doesn't end until all that maintenance has been resolved. My opinion being that the turn doesn't end until the opponent's turn starts and the only thing happening in between turns is wizards.

However, loathe as I am to admit it, Daloonie isn't being totally illogical as the word immediately in the pick up section can be used to support this quazi, in-between turns state for the maintenance period. It's an impressive piece of rules lawyering to introduce a completely new concept to the game based on one word in a 150 page rule book and I salute you sir! However I was always under the impression that the word immediately was more to emphasise the sudden and dramatic nature of turnovers than infer this limbo time, and I think you maybe reading more into it than intended.

So from an intellectual point of view I can't totally discredit your crazy interpretation, from a common sense and fair play point of view, your totally off the reservation!

Plus I don't agree with this it's not a TD in your turn because the player never completed his action. If my Mino has the ball and I declare a blitz to get the +2 to the Wild Animal role, then walk the TD in without blitzing do I not get a TD because I never finished my Blitz action? Or if I declared a Pass and then decided to run it in instead, do I not get the TD because I didn't complete my Pass Action? The intent of the page 15 wording is to stop people running into and out of the End Zone to manage SPP or the clock. Not to strip perfectly acceptable TDs.

[Asperon Thorn]

I think. . we could shed a lot of light on this if we defined the beginning of a turn.

Then we can see if the circumstances actually occur at the beginning of a turn, or the end of a turn or some grey inbetween turn.

Asperon Thorn

[Dzerards]

I think. . we could shed a lot of light on this if we defined the beginning of a turn.

The beginning of a turn is clearly defined on page 7. It's what happens between the turnover and the new turn that is the issue.

[Asperon Thorn]

I think. . we could shed a lot of light on this if we defined the beginning of a turn.

The beginning of a turn is clearly defined on page 7.

Please quote that for me.

Asperon Thorn

[daloonieshaman]

the in between turns if fully hashed in another thread.
A) it does exist
B) Stuff Happens

Example Wizard
Example Cards
so we will not go down that road here

Clarifier:
the failure to score a touchdown is based on 2 facts
1 When a player commits one of the 8 sins his ACTION ends immediately
2 A player standing in the endzone scores if he has the ball at the end of any of his player's ACTIONS

So did Handoff guy's ACTION end immediately? YES, We can all agree that is clearly stated in the rules (I will get to the bounce later)
When Handoff guy's ACTION ended was TZ guy standing in the EZ? Yes,we can all agree to that.
When Handoff guy's ACTION ended did EZ guy have the ball? NO!!!

End of turn, between turns here or there doesn't matter at this point.
Did the ball bounce to EZ guy? YES, we can all agree that the ball bounced to EZ guy
DID EZ guy have possession of the ball when Handoff guy's ACTION ended. NO!!!

I am sorry if you cannot make the correlation of two rules that coincide in this event.

now to answer some of the questions: (most have been hashed out in other threads)
During the course of a players ACTION he may choose to not complete the declared ACTION but is does consume that ACTION for that turn. Pass, Handoff, Blitz, Foul.
The Mino/Blitz is specifically hashed out, he scores
Failed plays end the players ACTION so no goal scored
Blood Lust is blood lust. You cannot even score before that is resolved

End of turn
I am not saying the ball does not bounce before the end of your turn
I am not saying that EZ guy did not catch the ball
I am not saying that your turns ends before you resolve the bounce

What you are not hearing is the simple facts.

THE PLAYER'S ACTION (not the turn) ENDED IMMEDIATELY
EZ GUY DID NOT HAVE THE BALL AT THE END OF THE PLAYER'S ACTION
NO TOUCHDOWN!
plain, simple, totally and completely what the rules state

you are being distracted by the end of the turn and the ball bouncing

to make it simpler:
step 1 event failed (one of the
step 2 ACTION ends immediately (ACTION ends, not turn)
step 3 You resolve stuff
step 4 opponent starts turn

[Dzerards]

I think. . we could shed a lot of light on this if we defined the beginning of a turn.

The beginning of a turn is clearly defined on page 7.

Please quote that for me.

Asperon Thorn

Seriously? You can't be bothered to pick up the rule book? How can you even have the gaul to get involved in such a pedantic debate if you're not going to scour the thing from back to front! It's okay, I paraphrased it early in the thread.

It says "A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately... ... if the ball was dropped, roll to see where it bounces normally. ....and then the opposing coach may start his turn."

Hence the opponent's turn doesn't start until the "maintenance period" is over. Now whether that maintenance period is still part of the players turn or some kinda limbo time is what is being debated.

[Greyhound]

Ok Ok, I start to understand where you come from:

THE PLAYER'S ACTION (not the turn) ENDED IMMEDIATELY
EZ GUY DID NOT HAVE THE BALL AT THE END OF THE PLAYER'S ACTION
NO TOUCHDOWN!
plain, simple, totally and completely what the rules state

I totally agree with this statement.

You focus a lot on hand off, so let's make this generic. (Human vs orc)
The human team fails an action while holding the ball (it could be hand off, pass, failed GFI, failed dodge, failed bloodlust, fouling etc...) creating an immediate turnover and forcing the ball to bounce.
YES I agree that there is no TD for the human team at the moment where the action ends, (which is immediately), and
YES the ball bounces and is caught after this action has ended.

Do you agree with the following statements:
1) the ball bouncing and being caught is still happening in the human turn; albeit after the action immediately ended. It is part of the turn and the turn ends once the ball has come to rest.
2) if an orc catch the ball he scores in the human turn as per the rule on page 15

If one of your players is holding the ball in the opposing team's End Zone at any point during your opponent's turn then your team scores a touchdown immediately

I'll give you however that if the human team catches the ball the rule as written seems to give them no TD:

A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their
players is standing in the opposing team's End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

if we can agree on the Orcs scoring in their opponent's turn then it becomes a debate of what constitutes "the end of any of your players' Actions" and if the ball bouncing is part of his action or not. The tentacle/Bloodlust thread will come handy again.

[Greyhound]

Hence the opponent's turn doesn't start until the "maintenance period" is over. Now whether that maintenance period is still part of the players turn or some kinda limbo time is what is being debated.

So we're all on the same page? the timeline goes

1. {Turn of player 1 starts}
2. {action of player 1 starts}
3. {failure (could be anything)}
4. {end of action of player 1}
5. {Potential bloodlust expulsion}
6. {Ball bounces, is caught or not, may end up in the crowd, be thrown back on the pitch etc... until it comes to rest somewhere}
7. {Turn of player 1 ends}
half/game may end here.

8. {Cards/Wizards}
9. {turn of player 2 starts}

[Dzerards]

to make it simpler:
step 1 event failed (one of the
step 2 ACTION ends immediately (ACTION ends, not turn)
step 3 You resolve stuff
step 4 opponent starts turn

Okay so what you're saying, as of step 2, that the ACTION ends immediately, not turn. Implying that the maintenance period is still part of the first players turn and not limbo time. Fair enough.

As for the touchdown rules I don't agree. If a player passes or hands off, his action is over from the second that ball leaves his hand, whether the receiver catchers it or not. You don't catch the ball as part of the previous guy's action. In fact there is no such thing as a catch action. In this case its a case of end of action is actual once his/her action has finished, not as part of his action. Kinda the opposite of the hypnotic gaze debate. So either way, if a player's action ends with him passing\handing the ball off or failing his pick up roll and you end up with the ball in the EZ it is a TD! His action ended either way the second the ball left his square.

Therefore TD on both counts. Simples!

[Greyhound]

If a player passes or hands off, his action is over from the second that ball leaves his hand, whether the receiver catchers it or not. You don't catch the ball as part of the previous guy's action.

Actually you do, take bloodlust as good example, you bite the thrall AFTER passing and after the player caught the ball. This is still part of your action

In fact there is no such thing as a catch action.

Correct since it is part of the hand-off / pass action sequence.

[duckwing]

If a player passes or hands off, his action is over from the second that ball leaves his hand, whether the receiver catchers it or not. You don't catch the ball as part of the previous guy's action.

Actually you do, take bloodlust as good example, you bite the thrall AFTER passing and after the player caught the ball. This is still part of your action

The skill description for Bloodlust declares that you have to bite the Thrall BEFORE passing, handing off or scoring.

I also again ask you to read the segment about fumbles on p.22. Nowhere does it say that the players action ends immediately when he fumbles. It says that if he fumbles the ball bounces from his square and THEN the moving team suffers a turnover.

[Greyhound]

I also again ask you to read the segment about fumbles on p.22. Nowhere does it say that the players action ends immediately when he fumbles. It says that if he fumbles the ball bounces from his square and THEN the moving team suffers a turnover.

Point taken for BL.

Everyone agreed that if he fumbles the ball bounces from his square and THEN the moving team suffers a turnover. so the turn does not end until the ball comes to rest. However the action DOES end immediately.

When you move your player and decides you don't want to go further, the action has ended, however you turn continues. There is a lot that can happen between the time where an action ends and the turn ends.
P22 confirms that after the action has ended there are still things going on and the turn isn't over.

question to you: if you play with a vampire who failed BL, and fumble before biting a thral do you :
1. leave the pitch before the ball comes to rest meaning that if the ball bounces all over the place it could end up in your empty square or
2. only leave the pitch once the ball comes to rest

If it is 2. you could end up in a weird loop where the ball bounces back to you and you manage to catch it... but must leave the pitch so drop it back again onto the pitch.

[duckwing]

You are jumping to conclusions. P. 22 doesn't say anything about when an action ends, nor does any other part of the rulebook (with the skill Tentacles being the only exception).
When you give a player a move action and then decide that you don't want to move him any more, that doesn't necessarily mean that his action is over. It's still "at the end of his action" until you activate the next player, not some kind of in-between-time.

I can't see that you have anything to support your claim that the players action doesn't extend all the way to the point when the turnover happens.

As to your question I would answer alternative #2. The vampire may drop the ball and then catch it if it bounces back to him. He will then leave the pitch to feed on a spectator and the ball bounces from his square again. Although I can't think of any situation other than a fumbled pass where a player may drop the ball while performing an action, which means that this can never happen.

[Greyhound]

Any action where you hold the ball and get a TO:
Skull on block, fouling and getting a double for instance

[duckwing]

Ah, but in none of those instances would the vampire be able to catch the ball if it bounced back to his square, because he would either be lying down or have left the pitch