Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

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Status of Claw/MB/piling on (choose upto 5 options)

Poll ended at Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:54 pm

Everything is fine. Leave it alone
159
65%
Keep everything the same except make claw 8+
7
3%
Don't allow claw and MB to effect the same roll
21
9%
Piling on effecting injury rolls is the real issue!
40
16%
Claw is fine, just make it doubles to get for chaos/nurgle
12
5%
make claw a trait so either you start with it or you dont get it
6
2%
 
Total votes: 245

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garion
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Re: Claw Poll

Post by garion »

Coachbalrog wrote:A. This game is called Blood Bowl, if there wasn't any skills that modify injury rolls it would severely affect the whole "Blood" aspect. Piling On is a great injury skill but comes at a high cost, putting your player prone.
B. There is a skill called Dirty Player, you should have at least one on your team to make your opponent think twice about placing his players prone.
C. You have never used the "Fend" skill yet you criticize it for being useless. It is much better than it seems. On LoS linemen (High Elf or Pro Elf) I take it as a second skill after Block or Wrestle. Having 3 Fend players on the LoS instantly eliminates 3 PO or Frenzy attempts at Kick-off, this is HUGE!
D. Playing keep away at high TV values is key to the Elf game, and from your comments you are good at it - this is intended by design.

Remember, just like you think that MB+PO+Claw is overpowered; many players feel that Long Bomb at 2+ combined with Catch at 2+ is also overpowered.

I'm not saying do away with any killer skills im just saying tone down PO a little, even just affecting Av it would be very effective to have on a couple of players and would be used more to try and hurt key opponent players instead of just using it on everyone. Also the high cost of keeping a player prone is no longer a high cost. People can safely leave people prone all they want in the current rule set as long as they have support players near the prone players to stop effective fouling.

DP is an alright skill but it is only effective if someone is stupid enough to leave a PO player prone with no support players anywhere near which is very very rare.

I know keeping your players away is by design and it is what elves are best at. That was my case for not needing fend at all on ag teams. But i still do not see any room on that team i posted for fend there is only one player i could have given it too (IMHO) which is the blodge lineman and i could have given him fend as the second skill rather than dodge, but i prefer dodge because it offers more protections in a wider variety of circumstances.

Long bomb cannot be achieved on a 2+ without double rolls and a stat increase. Which makes it a lot harder to come by than the combo in question.

I have used the fend skill. There is life outside of the internet versions of this game. I just havnt been playing with teams that really need it yet, though I have just started a lizardmen team on fumbbl and I intend on having fend on all the saurus because it is annoying :)

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Flix »

i said before LRB5 was released that there will be a maior issue and now, the issue is live on Fumbbl or Cyanide

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Mirascael »

Orcs and dwarfs are tier 2, humans tier 3 now?

Good job, BBRC.

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Carnis »

Tom, you are misunderstanding the MM system of fumbbl by a major factor. You're saying it's restricted to 150k, it's not. The MM matches within 15% of the lower TV'd team's TV.

So a 2million team can face 2.3million. It is still very strict for many races' starplayers & I think it will be laxed one day, but inducements are very much happening in fumbbls Blackbox division.

You say MBPOClaw stack is not OP, we say it is, and its not dependent on format, what is keeping TT leagues in check somewhat is social play by coaches not building 4x killerstack because the league would be deserted pretty quick. I tried it nonetheless in TT and got a lot of flak for doing it, but won 2 seasons without fail.

Saying your slann negate the killerstack with fend is fine in theory, but in practice even Block/MB/Claw without PO is really strong, and you are unlikely to have 6 fend thus your opponent will still get his claw-stack on a blitz target every turn!

Here's some winning teams from fumbbl's MM system, mine & RO's. Consequently RO reached the highest ever ELO in the fumbbl system by consistently playing nothing but chaos.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=641013
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=640614

Sure there's the freak game where you dont do any damage with the killerstack and you may even lose a game every once in a while, but frankly, it's rare. Usually my killerside averages over 5 casualties and wins the game, I have 1 loss and 2 draws in my last 15 games against unselected matchmade opposition at TV2000's.

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by spubbbba »

Carnis wrote: Here's some winning teams from fumbbl's MM system, mine & RO's. Consequently RO reached the highest ever ELO in the fumbbl system by consistently playing nothing but chaos.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=641013
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=640614
Neither of those records are particularly extraordinary really. You have to bear in mind that pairs you against random opponents so a good coach will probably get easier games than if they play in an open division such as [R]. Plenty of other coaches manage win rates as good as Random and better than yours with elf teams.

Chaos are very good at high TV and tailoring their team for specific opponents. The division is dominated by bashers at high TV, just look at the opponents faced, mostly Orcs, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and other chaos.

As I've stated before, if we see bashy teams dominate all the FUMBBL majors, scheduled leagues and Cyanide league then
i think you'll have an issue.

The rankings from big open online Bloodbowl are meaningless, there are loads of ways of gimping the system. You need a system where winning is all important and you often have to face much stronger teams to truly test a rules set. otherwise the issue is with the house rules used by that system not crp.

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garion
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Re: Claw Poll

Post by garion »

While you are right in a lot of what you say Spubbba (BTW I love your chaos slanesh team, its looking nice :) ) you just have to look at the match reports from these teams to see how ridiculously one sided alot of these games are. No team should be able to do this kind of damage on such a regular basis. No matter which format you play the game TT, Cyanide, FUMBBL R, B or L.

just take a look -
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3134053 - Okay maybe not the best example because ogres are the worst race this game has ever had, but still that amount of damage is a bit daft never-the-less
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3134287 - his opponent is a good coach
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3133516 - another good opponent - 10 BH though, to me that is concerning and no amount of inducements is stopping that beating
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3133147 - 7 BH, 4SI again a very good opponent
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3133873 - 6 BH, 4 SI
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3133807 - another good opponent, nurgle won and got 10 BH, the opponent had a wandering apoth as well. This was against a chaos team that was built in the LRB4 way with a mix of skills spreading the TV which is more proof that making team with star players all with the same stat line is the way to go, rather than make interesting teams.

Regardless of how the game was designed to be played these stats go some way in prooving that this combo is OP and all it would take to fix would be to make PO av only.

Also I feel that just because the team hasnt played a lot of elves etc... does not mean this combo isnt OP yes Elves would have a better chance of beating these teams than slow low Ag teams but the results shouldnt be soo ridiculously one sided as they are. The combo was meant to even the results out over a season and do a bit of damage to the high AV teams so they no longer walk away with the league, but I think it has gone the to far.

It is also worth saying that it is possible to get teams like these within a 30 game TT league.

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Carnis »

spubbbba wrote:
Carnis wrote: Here's some winning teams from fumbbl's MM system, mine & RO's. Consequently RO reached the highest ever ELO in the fumbbl system by consistently playing nothing but chaos.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=641013
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=640614
Neither of those records are particularly extraordinary really. You have to bear in mind that b pairs you against random opponents so a good coach will probably get easier games than if they play in an open division such as [R]. Plenty of other coaches manage win rates as good as Random and better than yours with elf teams.

The rankings from big open online Bloodbowl are meaningless.
Well it was not a gloat post, but if you take the sample of last 30 games the winratios paint an entirely different picture, eg:

My team: 21-6-3
RO's team: 28-1-1!!
galakstarscraper wrote:Some coaches can do well with a all Claw team but the majority of the data so far shows that isn't a strategy that wins games. So those coaches float to the bottom and the coaches that actually play to score TDs rather than CAS float above them and you seperate the folks actually playing the game from Jimmy wants to hurt something.

There will be coaches with Claw heavy teams that do well ... no doubt ... but that is because they are good coaches not because Claw or PoN or MBlow is that good even in combo.
As for what I was posting about was that this simply not being true, it IS a winning strategy, there's however a lot of coaches who favour killing over winning and that gimps the overall stats against the killerstack a lot.

And yes, RO is a good coach there's no arguing that, but 28-1-1 is far from meaningless when the argument here seems to be that 'stats seem to say' it's not a winning strat and that it's easy to counter.

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by plasmoid »

Thinking out loud:
Are other claw heavy teams than straight chaos doing a lot of winning with the stack?
The coaches I'm talking to are saying that chaos is clearly the best team in extreme long term play. Chaos are also slowly getting established in the top of the MBBL - though admittedly coached by people that could win with anything.

But maybe chaos should only have [had] full mutation access on the warriors and mino. Beastmen on doubles?

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Urb »

I'd almost agree with doubles for beastman mutation access other than chaos start with no skills (edit horns might count as a skill ;)). They don't become the winningest right away and it takes a good coach to get them there. It makes perfect sense why chaos are long term leaders. Most skill access and the scary ones.

I still don't see any problems with the 3 skill stack. Without block and tackle it's not THAT easy to take out other teams. A little bit of dodge sure makes things difficult.

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by daloonieshaman »

my skilled goblins love beating the crap out of claw heavy teams

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Deathwing »

There was an old lady that swallowed a fly....

OK... maybe this isn't the most constructive post, but I really couldn't care less about what's happening in FUMBBL/Cyanide leagues. This is a tabletop hobby game. While I'm spending time converting and painting my Pact team to a WYSIWYG standard, others who may never have picked up a paintbrush in their lives are busy doing their utmost to abuse whatever the current ruleset is and pushing the boundaries far beyond what a TT hobby game is ever liable to see in the environment it was designed for.

It's actually a very simple situation. The CRP is what is it. It's not going to change any time soon. For better or worst, deal with that. Either players will start building rosters to counter the 'OMG It's Broken!' rosters or environments with a problem will produce house rules to address that problem.

Failing that, maybe just get pissed off with how broken the game is and go and play something specifically designed for online play... Starcraft II or something...

Or you could go back to Gold and OSPA...( I suspect that actually may well be the best ruleset to date for FUMBBL.... )

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Smeborg »

Well said, Deathwing. I haven't seen a problem with Claw in tabletop leagues.

All the best

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Carnis »

Deathwing wrote:There was an old lady that swallowed a fly....
What was your argument again, that there is no case because we are evil? I completely find it hard to comprehend what WYSIWYG, or in fact anything in that post you put up.. Has to do with clawpomb being OP.

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by B SIDE »

Fend really can be a brilliant skill. Elves, though they also have an AV8 to protect them, have the option to dodge away from their opponents blocks on a 2+. Humans, Skaven, Slann, etc. linos don't have this option- and while it's possible for them to get big guys to help out on the line, it's also quite possible for them to be run over by a bashier team.

Fend stops a lot of injuries to your LoS players. But it's not because of how much it helps this turn. It's about how much it helps next turn. Every time your squishy lino stands up two squares from his opponent, that's one fewer hit your team will have to absorb on a subsequent turn.

What's more, Fend may actually be better than Stand Firm at defending against a grind offense. Canceling PO is just gravy for this skill.

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Re: Claw Poll

Post by Darkson »

Deathwing wrote:There was an old lady that swallowed a fly....
Round of applause for that man!

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