Pick up a ball

[Greyhound]

But if he left the pitch the square is empty so the ball can come to rest. A big difference !

[duckwing]

In the case of Bloodlust, yes. So that would make a difference if he was knocked down before he had the chance to feed on a thrall. And since his action doesn't en until the team suffers a turnover the ball can bounce off his prone body before he leaves the pitch.

[daloonieshaman]

Damn we ALL missed the obvious answer

THIS IS ALL ABOUT BOUNCING THE BALL AND THE TD OTHER STUFF WE WILL DO IN A DIFFERENT THREAD PLEASE

TurnOvers List pg 7

#2 Pass/Handoff the turnover happens AFTER the ball comes to rest (It also says it in the Action details on pg 13 (pass) pg20 (handoff)

#3 Picking up the Ball ... The turnover happens immediately and according to pgs 7 & 8 (pick up ball) you then bounce the ball (you bounce the ball after the end of you turn) (I will describe before/after end of turn events in another thread (SO DO NOT RESPOND WHEN TO DO END OF TURN maintenance other than bounce the ball.)

now here is where the nitpicking starts:
pg 8 last 2 sentences says 2 things that can confuse some (yes we all take it British will be confused )(does that qualify as dry humor?)
1) If the player drops the ball it will bounce one square (we all know that)
2) If the player drops the ball his turn ends immediately (supported by pg 7)

On pg7 it states at the bottom
His Action ends immediately (we all know that)
If the ball was dropped THEN bounce it

So according to the 2 pages:
He dropped the ball (okay we get that)
His turn ends immediately (okay we get that)
His action ends immediately (okay duh his turn ended)
He THEN bounces the ball
(we will discuss how you resolve a bouncing ball after your turn in another thread)

#6 Fumble the turn over happens even if one of your players catch the ball (after the bounce or how would he catch the ball). (also pg 22)

Well what do we do with all this lovely data.
analyze .................
Failed Pick up ball YES
Player ACTION ends immediately YES
Immediately End Turn YES
Then Bounce the ball YES

Is it a TD NO NO NO NO NO NO
Why? because we love you M.O.U.S.E. (70s thing)
Can't score if at the end of your turn you do not have the ball


Now if you threw the ball and it bounced everywhere and came to rest in one of your players hands that was in the EZ would it be a TD
all together now::: YES

If there was any other turn than the end of turn 8/16 would he score at the beginning of his opponents turn and spend his turn celebrating YES

So the answer to the origional question is
No he does not score because the failure to pickup the ball immediately ends your turn

[Xeterog]

it's a td..

your turn does not end until the ball comes to rest and armor/injury rolls are made. These rolls are NOT part of an 'in-between' turn maintenance phase. That is not there in the rules AT ALL.

Cards and Wizards create and EXCEPTION to the rules, where something happens right before your opponent moves his turn marker to start his turn but after your turn has ended, but everything else happens during your turn or your oppoonents turn.

must stop posting in these threads before I go off the deep end

[daloonieshaman]

it's a td..

your turn does not end until the ball comes to rest and armor/injury rolls are made. These rolls are NOT part of an 'in-between' turn maintenance phase. That is not there in the rules AT ALL.

Cards and Wizards create and EXCEPTION to the rules, where something happens right before your opponent moves his turn marker to start his turn but after your turn has ended, but everything else happens during your turn or your oppoonents turn.

must stop posting in these threads before I go off the deep end

Those are interesting point
question:
on page 10 under the section Knocked down when does the turn end?

on page 7 Turnovers
#1 what caused the turn to end?

So the turn has ended?

When do you roll for armor and injury?

How do you roll for armor and injury before immediately?

[Greyhound]

I am sorry that you cannot read and comprehend the rules.

Abuse will get you no where. It's obvious every can read if not they wouldn't be on the forum, and regarding the "comprehend" part it is a debated subject therefore open to some interpretation. Try to be polite and courteous it will help people reading your post with greater care and acceptance.

Now I'm finally going back to book and doing searches on key words "end" "turn" "action" to get a clearer picture. I'm very interested in the different interpretations on the forum, even more when backed up with actual quotes from the rulebook.

What happens when you suffer an "immediate" turnover:
If a ball thrown by a player isn"t caught by a player from the
moving team, this causes a turnover and the moving team"s turn
ends.

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed

According to the same page the order of play after that is

Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down,

then

and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned players should be turned face up,

and finally

and then the opposing coach may start to take his turn.

in regards to vampires failing a hand-off and suffering from BL:

Failure to bite a Thrall is a turnover and requires him to feed on a spectator – move the Vampire to the reserves box if he was still on the pitch. If he was holding the ball, it bounces from the square he occupied when he was removed and he will not score a touchdown if he was in the opposing end zone

Confirms that the removal of the vampire happens after the action has ended since it happens AFTER the armour roll is failed (if he was still on the pitch) and the previous quote shows that the turn has ended.

From these quotes I read that:
[action starts] confirmed
[actions fails] confirmed
[action ends] assumed from page7 "and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed"
[armour and injury rolls] confirmed
[BL fail] assumed, we know it's after the armour roll, so I put it there, I can't see it making any difference if it's put after.
[ball bounces] confirmed
[turn ends] assumed
[opponent turn starts] confirmed with "and then the opposing coach may start to take his turn"

can you help me confirm my assumption in red? to back it up I found:

When all of the players in a team have performed an Action then the turn ends

If the player who is Knocked Down comes from the moving team, then this caused a turnover and the moving team's turn ends immediately!

If a ball thrown by a player isn"t caught by a player from the moving team, this causes a turnover and the moving team"s turn ends.

If the player is Knocked Down then his team suffers a turnover and the team"s turn ends immediately

A successful interception causes a turnover, and the moving team"s turn ends immediately.

and the moving team will suffer a turnover and their turn ends immediately.

I'm not sure when the turn actually ends, although it's clear it's happening right after the TO.

[daloonieshaman]

sorry and I changed my post while you were writing yours

1) The (declared) ACTION ends immediately when the dice fail
I think we all have accepted this as 100% fact (if not you might as well climb aboard)

2) The end of an action is not always the end of the turn (even if it fails)

3) When does the failed action end the turn immediately?
more or less most of the time as listed in each action.
2) When does the failed action NOT end the turn immediately ?
when a pass/handoff is not caught at first. (Under this heading you are instructed to scatter/bounce the ball BEFORE the end of your turn) It is declared that the turn does not end until the ball come to rest in an empty square. (scatter and bounce the ball) and FUMBLE after the ball bounces (regardless of the catch).

I opened a whole new thread about when a turn ends and what happens before and after the end of the turn. I hope people will come to the understanding that there is really gray space between turns that is actually used almost every player turn.

The fun part will be getting people to understand the difference between
YOUR TURN IS OVER
but I have to make these rolls

[Dzerards]

You do realise the word immediately does not always have the same meaning as instantly?

It can mean without delay, as soon as possible, posthaste, promptly, right away.

If I ask you to leave my house immediately, I don't expect you to magically materialise on my driveway. There is a process for leaving, which involves standing up, walking down the hall, opening the front door and stepping through it. Likewise, if your climbing a tree and I tell you to come down immediately, I would hope you have the common sense not to just let go of the branches and fall to the ground.

Also when I tell you to leave my house immediately you haven't actually left until you've completed said process. Therefore when the rules tell you to immediately end you turn it hasn't ended until you have completed the turnover process as described on page 7.

The way you use the word I would be afraid to ask you to leave my house immediately incase you pulled a Mrs. Doyle and went out through the window!

[Greyhound]

ok so essentially for this thread, the moving team cannot score if the ball drops, because the action ends before the bounce, and therefore the TD cannot be counted.
In order to see if the opposite team can score we have to establish if the ball is caught within the turn of the moving turn (albeit after the action) or after. In one case it's a TD, in the other it is not:

case 1)
[action starts] confirmed
[actions fails] confirmed
[action ends] confirmed
[armour and injury rolls] confirmed
[BL fail] assumed, we know it's after the armour roll, so I put it there, I can't see it making any difference if it's put after.
[ball bounces and is caught by the opposite team on the TD line] confirmed
{TOUCHDOWN!}
[turn ends happens AFTER the bounce] assumed by those who believe immediately is not instantaneous and would like to see the AV roll, and ball bounce as part of the Turn
[end of the half/Game]

case 2)
[action starts] confirmed
[actions fails] confirmed
[action ends] confirmed
[turn ends happens immediately before ball bounces] assumed by those who believe immediately means instantaneously
[armour and injury rolls] confirmed
[BL fail] assumed, we know it's after the armour roll, so I put it there, I can't see it making any difference if it's put after.
[ball bounces and is caught by the opposite team on the TD line] confirmed
no score because you can only score in 2 conditions:
at the end of your action for the moving team or in your opponent's turn for the other team. Since this happen after the turn ended no touchdown.
[end of the half/Game]

[Dzerards]

ok so essentially for this thread, the moving team cannot score if the ball drops, because the action ends before the bounce, and therefore the TD cannot be counted.

I still totally disagree with his point. As I said before, the players action has ended the instant the ball leaves his square, whether though a hand off, pass, fumble, knock down, sending off or a failed pick up. The player catching the ball does the catch as a result of the prior action, whatever it was, not as a part of the action. To say you can't give a TD because the player's action ended in a different way than he was intending is nonsense as we've already agreed that you can score a TD while not ending your action the way it was declared. i.e Declaring a pass and then just running it in.

[daloonieshaman]

Gerad,
you missed one little itty bitty point
in order to score on your turn 2 things have to happen

you are standing in the end zone (we get that one)
&
at the end of a player ACTION you have the ball

please point out page # and referred text to when an action ends (other than a turnover)

[Greyhound]

Gerard, I agree with your logic but find no means to support it in the book:

A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their
players is standing in the opposing team"s End Zone while
holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions. As
soon as this happens, play stops, the crowd cheers and whistles
and cheerleaders dance about waving pom-poms. The coach of
the scoring team has our permission to leap about and cheer a
bit too, while moving the score marker one space along the
scoring track on the Playing Pitch.

emphasis not mine. If you are correct in your assumption that the catch is not part of the throw action (which I cannot believe, please quote to confirm why) then in this case you can't score on receiving the ball...

furthermore

To say you can't give a TD because the player's action ended in a different way than he was intending is nonsense as we've already agreed that you can score a TD while not ending your action the way it was declared. i.e Declaring a pass and then just running it in.

The rule specifically talk about this case in the bloodlust rule:

Failure to bite a
Thrall is a turnover and requires him to feed on a spectator – move the
Vampire to the reserves box if he was still on the pitch. If he was holding
the ball, it bounces from the square he occupied when he was removed
and he will not score a touchdown if he was in the opposing end zone.

[daloonieshaman]

you love that blood lust stuff (must be a vamp)

[Greyhound]

you love that blood lust stuff (must be a vamp)

I don't, it's just a good indicator of what happens at the "end" of an action. The details in biting "at the end of the turn" and what happen if you don't show the intent for resolving what happens to a player after his action ended.

See a vampire who moves to the TD line and end his move in the EZ but didn't bite a thrall (after failing his BL) is sent off. His expulsion shows the timing of "end action" fairly well.

[daloonieshaman]

SO what you are saying is (mental clarity here)

Action "Move"
BL *#%* rolled a 1
goes into endzone holding the ball
crowd holds its breath
a) Bites a Thrall = TD
b) No bite = NO td, drop ball, bye bye

but the action does not end until
a) bites AND scores
b) drops the ball and sent off

so for arguments sake (damnit I just opened another can)
Vamp (#1) in EZ
other Vamp (#2) has ball
#2 calls "Move"
runs into EZ next to #1
no thrall (I cannot imagine how that happened)
#2 drops ball and goes away
ball scatters to #1 (who is standing in the EZ)

Because #2 did not bite he could not score, drops ball, he is sent off and his ACTION ends
then
the ball scatters to #1 (who catches it)
At that point it is the end of turn?
&
#1 did not score because he got the ball AFTER #1's ACTION ended