Rules Question - Diving Catch

[Count Zappa]

Okay... this was an odd one.

My friends and I still play 3rd edition rules. A few weeks ago, we ran into a situation where a thrower missed his catcher, and the ball scattered into the crowd. The crowd tossed the ball back in, and it scattered one square away from that catcher.

The coach wanted to use the catcher's Diving Catch skill, arguing the fans were in essence completing the pass to the intended receiver.

I disagree. I say the pass became incomplete when it hit the crowd, and that when the ball was thrown in, there was no intended receiver, and thus there was no chance to use Diving Catch.

So... any opinions?

Please remember, we're playing under 3rd edition rules here (if that matters).

[DoubleSkulls]

iirc (and I probably don't) under 3rd ed you could use DC regardless of whether you are the target of a pass and could move for any loose ball.

[Count Zappa]

iirc (and I probably don't) under 3rd ed you could use DC regardless of whether you are the target of a pass and could move for any loose ball.

No.

Third edition Diving Catch rule states:

"The player may use this skill if the ball was thrown to him and missed. It allows the player to move one square after the ball has scattered. The move is made after the ball has scattered, but before it hits the ground or can be caught. No Dodge roll is required to make this move. If this move takes the player into the square that the ball is in then he is allowed to try and catch it. Although a player using Diving Catch ends up on the ground for a moment, because this is a controlled fall he will not be injured and he will almost instantly regain his feet. Therefore the player is not knocked over when he uses this skill."

So the ball has to be thrown to the player with Diving Catch.

Hmm... I just realized two disturbing things about the wording of this rule as I typed it out:

1) A player with Diving Catch can use the skill to move one square without having to dodge, even if the ball is not within his reach.

2) Only male players are allowed to use it.

Ahem.

Anyway... back to the initial question in the first post. Is it right to use Diving Tackle to try to catch a throw-in, if you were the intended receiver of the throw that went into the stands?

[Andy]

If I had to rule it, I would allow the catching player to make his move after the ball scatters into the crowd, but before it is thrown back onto the pitch.
Just a thought.

[MixX]

If I had to rule it, I would allow the catching player to make his move after the ball scatters into the crowd, but before it is thrown back onto the pitch.
Just a thought.

So would I, but again since it's 3rd ed rules, I'm not 100 % sure. I think it's pretty clear because of "before it hits the ground or can be caught". When it has scattered (into the crowd) it "hits the ground", but out of bounds. Therefore the player should move his diving catcher at this point, not after the throw-in. If he's THEN in a position to catch it, I'd say he can (if the crowd throws the ball to him)...

[Old Man Draco]

I would only allow it if the DC player was also the intended player to catch the ball in the first place. If not, then he can't use the skill.

[Frankenstein]

I would only allow it if the DC player was also the intended player to catch the ball in the first place. If not, then he can't use the skill

He was.

The pass was thrown to my catcher. The dice resulted in an inaccurate pass and on the third scatter, it ended up OB. When it was thrown back in, it ended up one square away from the original recipiant of the pass. I thought at the time that since he had Diving Catch, that would allow him to make his move and try to recover the ball.

I look at the scatter not as the ball hitting the ground three times, bouncing in three different directions but as a measure of where inaccurate pass ended it's flight path. Since it ended up OB, it never touched the ground; the crowd caught it and threw it back onto the field. The ball was still in flight. It just so happened that they threw it right back to within one square of where it was originally intended. Since a Player is allowed to catch a Throw In if he's in the square that it lands in, why wouldn't a player with Diving Catch be allowed to use the skill to catch the ball as well? (Especially if he's the one that the ball was originally thrown to in the first place...)

Just my 2 cents worth...

[MixX]

I would say that if the ball ends up "out of bounds" then in effect it counts as having hit the ground. The crowd throwing the ball back in is no longer part of the throw, so the catcher can't use Diving Catch on that.

I would, however, say that after the three scatter rolls, the catcher is able to move 1 square from Diving Catch, since all the requirements of 3rd ed Diving Catch is met: he was the original target, and the pass missed. Note that he should move this one square BEFORE the ball was thrown back in.

If, after he has moved his one square, and the crowd throws the ball back in, the ball then ends up in his square he could of course try and catch it, and if succesful, avoid the turnover..

[Kheldar]

Amen

[Darkson]

I'd rule that the player could use DC in this case. I agree with the coaches view that the crowd "completed" the pass.

From a rules standpoint, in a normal missed throw, you'd have to complete all 3 scatters before seeing if DC could be used. Well, in this case, the scatter also includes a crowd throw-in.

[Alesdair]

The crowds throw-in was a legitimate part of the scatter given that if it accuatlly scattered onto him or another team mate (and caught) it wouldn't have been a turnover, so it never stoped moving...

and the skill states..

The move is made after the ball has scattered, but before it hits the ground or can be caught.

Definatly able to Diving Catch it.

[Count Zappa]

Well, I did what I probably should have done from the start. I went digging a bit and found this in the Throwing The Football section of the Blood Bowl rule book. This is from page 12, paragraph five (stuff in bold is my emphasis):

"If the final or modified score equals or beats the required roll, the pass is accurate and lands in the target square. If the dice roll is less than the required total, then the pass is not accurate and will scatter. Roll for scatter three times, one after the other, to see where the ball ends up. Note that each scatter roll is made seperately, so it is possible for the ball to end up back in the target square (though it will be harder to catch). The ball can only be caught in the final square where it ends up -- if it scatters through a player's square, then the player is not allowed to try and catch the ball."

I think the key here is what I put in bold. If the throw is inaccurate, roll scatter three times, this is where the pass ends up. In the case of the game in my league, the ball ended up in the crowd. Incomplete pass. The throw in completes nothing -- so Diving Catch should not apply.

[Old Man Draco]

This is something totally different. It is not a complete pass so the thrower gets no SPP for his throw. But the catcher still gets to use his diving catch skill in my opinion, because the incomplete pass lands in a square next to that catcher.
The ball does not end up in the the crowd. It get's thrown back to the field. Then it comes to rest and not before.

[Count Zappa]

The rule states if the throw is inaccurate, scatter three times... this is where the ball ends up, and the ball can only be caught where it ends up. In the example I cited, the ball ends up in the crowd. Then, as per the rules, the crowd throws the ball back in -- something completely different than the original throw.

In that case, I can't see how Diving Catch applies as described.

[campaigner]

If I had to rule it, I would allow the catching player to make his move after the ball scatters into the crowd, but before it is thrown back onto the pitch.
Just a thought.

second that