Talk Fantasy Football

I currently have a Skaven team and I am using my thrower as an all purpose ball carrier as I mostly play the running game. Starting with Sure hands he was protected against the teams with Strip Ball, meaning I could keep him in a cage and be relatively safe until I was ready to hand off. Then I gave him Dump Off, to ensure even if the cage was broken I could get the ball away to a GR. He can also be aided by a Stormvermin with Guard, meaning that while he becomes a target for the opposing blitzer he gets a better chance than most.

Now I have given him accurate, as a GR up skilled at the same time so I could combo it up with Catch to allow me to have a some what reliable passing game (My other GR is the all purpose Blodge, Sidestep).

Now, I am looking towards the next skill and wondering what I would do if I roll a double. I mean, I could go for Big Hand, but without dodge it's probably not worth it that much. Then I thought about Strong Arm. Sure its an obvious choice to improve the throwing game, but I also wonder if it combos up with dump off. Can a player with Strong Arm effectively dump off up to the short pass range, rather than just the quick, as each band is counted as one lower when passing and dump off can only be used to make a quick pass?

If I can then it would certainly make life difficult for the opposition, with any attempted blitz giving me the chance to get the ball a fiar way down field.

Big hand works great. You have dump off, so when someone goes to hit you, you just pass it to a close player... great for driving opposing defenses up the wall.

John -

To answer the question, Dump Off and Strong Arm do not combine. Dump Off allows you to throw the ball to Quick Pass range. Strong Arm allows you to reduce the range of any thrown ball, but never below Quick. As a Quick Pass is always a Quick Pass with Strong Arm, you won't notice any effect.

In your favor, the Accurate skill will allow you to throw a more accurate dump off.

Cheers!

-Chet

Chet,
I have to say that your explanation confuses me.

> Dump Off allows you to throw the ball to Quick Pass range.

Right. No problem there.

> Strong Arm allows you to reduce the range of any thrown ball, but never below Quick.

Right.

> As a Quick Pass is always a Quick Pass with Strong Arm, you won't notice any effect.

Sure.

But the thing is, neither of these qualify as an explanation on why they don't combine.

The way I see it, and I'm sure alot of people asking this question does too is as follows:

1. You may dump-off within quick pass range.
2. With Strong arm, you treat short passes just as you would a quick pass.

Using this logic, you would be allowed to dump-off to someone 5 squares away (deliberately avoiding saying "short pass" here).

I'm fully able to accept a statement like "No, it won't combine because it would be beardy".

That being said, I think I know what you are trying to say, but I can't find words for it myself.. Perhaps something like "Strong arm reduces the range, it does not extend them". I would suggest to state it right out in the rules("Strong arm does not combine with pass block"), come up with a good wording on the explanation or simply allow them to be combined.

-- Christer

you were right in one aspect. IT IS BEARDY.
it's stretching the rules, but also in a wrong way. The rule says a quick pass!!!!! Rules should not have to be added to, just to make people like you stop missusing them.

g

The way I see it, and I'm sure alot of people asking this question does too is as follows:

1. You may dump-off within quick pass range.
2. With Strong arm, you treat short passes just as you would a quick pass.

Using this logic, you would be allowed to dump-off to someone 5 squares away (deliberately avoiding saying "short pass" here).

No, see, that's the heart of the rule. Dump Off does not allow you to throw the ball to someone 5 squares away, because it doesn't allow you to throw a Short Pass. If it did, however, you could treat the Short Pass as a Quick Pass because of Strong Arm.

You're trying to use Strong Arm - a skill that requires you to measure the distance and read the ruler - before using Dump Off, which allows you to measure to anyone in a certain range (namely, Quick Pass). And it just doesn't work that way. If Strong Arm said, "Use the following range ruler instead," and it said, "Quick - Quick - Short - Long," then this (bad) reading would be correct. But the description of Strong Arm says something else entirely.

-Chet

Be nice, there is not really a need for the "people like you" bit. It is just a question that freely admits a hint of Beard.

Rules should not have to be added to, just to make people like you stop missusing them.

The thing is, I have never had a player with this combination myself. I do have been playing against teams with this combo and I've even myself said that it's ok to dump-off in the short-pass range while playing these teams.

It appears I've been wrong about this, but in my opinion it really doesn't make that much of a difference. The people I play regularly are cool enough to not "abuse" these things...

In any case, I wrote the post with honest intentions. I fully respect Chet's knowledge of the rules are supposed to be read and didn't question the fact that the skills doesn't combine. I just asked for further explanation.

The wording on the skill allows me (who doesn't have english as his first language) to misinterpret how it's supposed to be used. I guess it's the "For example, a long pass is treated as a short pass, etc." passage that confuses me.

The thing that I didn't realize was that long pass is still a long pass even if it's treated as short.

This post would normally be a short "I stand corrected" thing, but when people hint that I am deliberately misreading rules to my own advantage I feel the need to reply. Anyone who have played against me will know that I simply don't do this.

Oh, and Chet..

I stand corrected.

-- Christer

Just as expected, a question of Clarity not Chin growth

christer wrote:

The wording on the skill allows me (who doesn't have english as his first language) to misinterpret how it's supposed to be used. I guess it's the "For example, a long pass is treated as a short pass, etc." passage that confuses me.

I've misread it too and English is SUPPOSED to be my first language.

on strong arm and dump off

We always played it that it's not a question of how far you can throw it, it's a question of how quickly you can "acquire" an elegible reciever so quick stays quick regardless of how strong your arm is wrt dumpoffs

on big hand on a skaven thrower

You dont' need dodge for big hand to be effective. if you take a handoff action in to a number of tacklezones, then hand it back to a friendly player who is in the clear (or better still, has NoS) then you don't need to make the dodge at all.

Marcus

sorry, spent a morning reading forums before posting reply. Got really fed up with people adding to skills that were allright in the first place and questions that translated into: how can I get more out of my team without looking at anything like balance and background.

I be more carefull in the future

g

From LRB 1.3

Strong Arm (Passing Trait)
Reduce the range by one band (but never lower than ‘Quick’) when the player passes the ball. For example, a long pass is treated as a Short pass, etc.

Dump-Off (Passing Skill)
This skill allows the player to make a Quick Pass when an opposing player declares that he will throw a block at him, allowing the player to get rid of the ball before he is hit. Work out makes his block. The normal throwing rules apply, except that neither team’s turn ends as a result of the throw, whatever it may be. After the throw is worked out your opponent completes the block, and then carries on with his turn.

Now, I can see how reading these two skill descriptions leads people to think that they combine. In fact, I can't really see a justification for say that they don't. If a long pass is treated as a short, then surely a short is treated as a quick, therefore eligable for a dump off.

If this is incorrect then the descriptions need clarifying, or can someone point me at the correct reference to clarify this.

Ian

In terms of game balance, it might give strong arm a bit of a boost, since currently it's all-around weaker than accurate, even though it's a trait. I don't know if this would be too 'game breaking' a combination though...

David

Reading Chet's response I tend to agree.
Like often happens in CCG's, but is less often mentioned in wargames/boardgames, it's a question of timing.

Chet's logic that the Skill Strong Arm is used AFTER measuring a range to THEN decrease the range, rather than decreasing the range on the ruler, is correct.

When applying the tight boundaries of timing to the game, like one would in a CCG, I see that you never get as far as MEASURING short range with the Dump Off Skill, so therefor, it can NOT be reduced because such a range does not exist in conjunction within a dump off. There is one range, and it is quick.

Anyway, that's my opinion as the original rules querier. The major reason for asking the question was just to gauge peoples opinions, not because I thought I had some sort of god play on my hands. I may still give my Thrower Strongarm if I get a double, as it will make him a great all round thrower and my other thrower slot is actually taken up by a Kicker. (Unfortunately my original kicker was killed at 5 spp's, so neither he nor the current one have had a chance to advance).