LRB 5 Frenzy question

[Craigtw]

If the frenzied player is performing a Blitz Action then he must pay a square of Movement and must make the second block unless he has no further normal movement and cannot go for it again.

So does this to mean that a player with frenzy must make the GFI for the second block if they are able to do so?

Curious was this to prevent the people who would run back and forth and back and forth before making the hit so that they would only have to make the one block if that was all they wanted to do?

[Xeterog]

that is exactly what it means and for that very reason

[fen]

Indeed, no more pre-frenzy tribal dance.

Wooga-chakka, wooga-chakka!

[Duke Jan]

Now its just a matter of deciding you'd rather GFI one time more than make that second block and then do the frenzy dance.

[Karl Lagerbottom]

If the frenzied player is performing a Blitz Action then he must pay a square of Movement and must make the second block unless he has no further normal movement and cannot go for it again.

So does this to mean that a player with frenzy must make the GFI for the second block if they are able to do so?

Curious was this to prevent the people who would run back and forth and back and forth before making the hit so that they would only have to make the one block if that was all they wanted to do?

I read this the other way because of the word unless...the frenzied player has to make the 2nd block unless...

unless he has no further normal movement and cannot go for it again.

Shouldn't that mean that is that is true, then the player can not make the 2nd block?

[Gumbo]

THats great news, glad they have done that.

[Digger Goreman]

I asked this question of Galak and he said that if you can go for it (i.e., if you have any gfi left) you must gfi to throw the second block.

[GalakStarscraper]

unless he has no further normal movement and cannot go for it again.

Shouldn't that mean that is that is true, then the player can not make the 2nd block?

If a player can go for it than that is not the same as cannot go for it.

IE ... you have to GFI for the 2nd block if you have a GFI left to use.

Galak

[Xeterog]

unless he has no further normal movement and cannot go for it again.

Because of the 'and', this phrase only kicks in if both 'No further movement' and 'Can not go for it again' are true

The only time both statements are true is if you have used all your normal movement AND have used 2 GFI's already (if you have sprint and choose to use it, then this would be 3 gfi's)

if you have normal movement left, or if you can go-for-it again (IE. have used 0 or 1 gfi's), then the whole phrase (starting with 'unless...') is ignored and you must throw the 2nd block.

(if you have sprint and have used 2 GFI's you may choose to not use the skill and stop blocking or choose to use the skill and GFI for a 3rd time to make the 2nd block)

[Karl Lagerbottom]

unless he has no further normal movement and cannot go for it again.

Because of the 'and', this phrase only kicks in if both 'No further movement' and 'Can not go for it again' are true

The only time both statements are true is if you have used all your normal movement AND have used 2 GFI's already (if you have sprint and choose to use it, then this would be 3 gfi's)

if you have normal movement left, or if you can go-for-it again (IE. have used 0 or 1 gfi's), then the whole phrase (starting with 'unless...') is ignored and you must throw the 2nd block.

(if you have sprint and have used 2 GFI's you may choose to not use the skill and stop blocking or choose to use the skill and GFI for a 3rd time to make the 2nd block)

The question I have is...how would someone have used ANY GFI unless thay had already used all of their normal movement? In my opinion the wording of the "unless" part of the rule description causes confusion.

I understand what you are saying regarding Sprint and the 3rd GFI possibility...but are you saying that is why Frenzy is described the way it is? If so...IMHO I think the rule should be made clearer...then a Q&A ammended to clear-up any confusion about how Frenzy and Sprint would work together.

There are way too many combinations and skill interactions to try and cover all overlap in each skill description.

Again...I don't know if this is just me being confused, but prepare for some "rule lawyering" on this one from the same folks that worked the exploit that you are trying to avoid.

[Xeterog]

The question I have is...how would someone have used ANY GFI unless thay had already used all of their normal movement?

That is just it. The only time you are not forced to make the 2nd block is if you are out of both normal movement and GFI's.

If you didn't put the 'out of normal movement' part in there, you'd rules lawyers trying to say that "I have 1 MA left, so I CAN'T go for it again, therefore I don't have to throw the 2nd block."

And if you left the 'Can not go for it again' out, you'd get other rules lawyers saying that since I have no more normal movement, I'm not forced to make the GFI to throw the 2nd block (and this would almost be a reasonable thing, since this is how it works in LRB4)

Because of the interaction with sprint (and possibly a card or two), you can't just say 'have gone for it 2 times already' since there can be situations where you have gone for it 2 times already but still are able to GFI again.


So, you have to restrict the condition on not throwing the 2nd block so that to satisfy the exception, you must be out of Normal Movement and are out of GFI attempts (normally by having gone for it 2 times already).

[Karl Lagerbottom]

The question I have is...how would someone have used ANY GFI unless thay had already used all of their normal movement?

That is just it. The only time you are not forced to make the 2nd block is if you are out of both normal movement and GFI's.

If you didn't put the 'out of normal movement' part in there, you'd rules lawyers trying to say that "I have 1 MA left, so I CAN'T go for it again, therefore I don't have to throw the 2nd block."

And if you left the 'Can not go for it again' out, you'd get other rules lawyers saying that since I have no more normal movement, I'm not forced to make the GFI to throw the 2nd block (and this would almost be a reasonable thing, since this is how it works in LRB4)

Because of the interaction with sprint (and possibly a card or two), you can't just say 'have gone for it 2 times already' since there can be situations where you have gone for it 2 times already but still are able to GFI again.


So, you have to restrict the condition on not throwing the 2nd block so that to satisfy the exception, you must be out of Normal Movement and are out of GFI attempts (normally by having gone for it 2 times already).

I say you just make the skill description a clear cut one then give examples. Or better yet, why can't you follow-up the basic description of the rule by saying you must throw two blocks even if you are forced to GFI to do so. There are plenty of places in the rule book where details/clarifications such of these exist...why should this description take "programmer logic" to figure out?

IMHO the rule is way to wordy and is unclear.

I wouldn't trade places with Galak...but if the object is to have a clear set of rules...he may want to revisit some of these things. Again just my 2 cents.

[Kheldar]

I say you just make the skill description a clear cut one then give examples. Or better yet, why can't you follow-up the basic description of the rule by saying you must throw two blocks even if you are forced to GFI to do so. There are plenty of places in the rule book where details/clarifications such of these exist...why should this description take "programmer logic" to figure out?

IMHO the rule is way to wordy and is unclear.

I wouldn't trade places with Galak...but if the object is to have a clear set of rules...he may want to revisit some of these things. Again just my 2 cents.

This is a clear rule. No normal movement and no GFI left. No Block. Movement left, or able to GFI then the frenzy player has to block.

You could word it like this (not needed in my oppinion):

You have to throw the second block as long as you have normal movement left or can go for it.

[Karl Lagerbottom]

This is a clear rule. No normal movement and no GFI left. No Block. Movement left, or able to GFI then the frenzy player has to block.

I disagree that the rule is clear as it is written in LRB5.

You have to throw the second block as long as you have normal movement left or can go for it.

Much clearer written this way.


Whatever...I know how the rule works thanks to the clarification. Thanks again for that. The rest is a seperate discussion for the benefit of folks who only have the book to go by, and don't have access to these forums.
(Benefit in that if IMO the rules were made clearer, they wouldn't need to come to this type of resource for the clarification.)


EDIT:
How about:

...unless he has already used all of his normal movement AND has stolen two squares to throw the first block.

or

...unless he has already used all of his normal movement AND is unable to GFI again.

IMO using the word unable alone would make the rule more clear. CANNOT sounds like he is not allowed to GFI...wheareas UNABLE seems to state that the player does not have the ability to GFI again.

Again...whatever. Me confused...but me can't be the only one.

[GalakStarscraper]

...unless he has already used all of his normal movement AND is unable to GFI again.

IMO using the word unable alone would make the rule more clear. CANNOT sounds like he is not allowed to GFI

Karl ... I'm going to respectively disagree with you on this. Now this one could just be me .. but I don't read the work "unable" any differently than "cannot".

Sorry ... I just don't. ... honest question ... if you didn't know the right answer now would this have been clear to you.

Galak