Double blitz

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 9:34 pm

This is probably meant for Galak.

Anyway, is there any real diff with the double blitz rule (used in MBBL) and the way the frenzy rule is now? Other than the ability to possibly keep moving after the hits with DB, they both basically allow you to hit someone twice if they don't fall on the first hit. (seem very similar if not almost the same).

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 10:04 pm

With the LRB change to Frenzy, Double Blitz is very similar to Frenzy.

However the following elements are different:

1) Double Blitz works only on a Blitz action. Frenzy also works on Blocks.
2) Frenzy requires you to follow-up. Double Blitz does not.
3) Frenzy requires you to throw a 2nd block if you get a push back. Double Blitz does not.
4) If both players have Block, and you roll Pow/Skulls on the blitz, Double Blitz would allow you to try to hit them again, Frenzy would not.
5) Double Blitz is a Strength trait. Frenzy is a General Trait.

Yes, they are very similar but different enough that each has advantages over the other in certain situations based on who has access to each skill.

Bottom line to me: Frenzy makes you a better blocker, Double Blitz a better blitzer. Double Blitz is more difficult to obtain.

Example:
On an Ogre or Chaos Warrior .... I'd rather have Frenzy.
On a Beastman or Orc Blitzer ... I'd rather have Double Blitz.

For me they have enough differences to leave both skills in my league.

Galak

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 11:02 pm

Thanks for clearing that up!

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:16 am

Blitzers....but Elf Bliters can't have it. looking unfair for blitzers.
Maybe we should do as in 2nd ED, not strengh,Agility,general skills/Trait but by position:
Blitzers/Special/Lineman/Catcher... skills and trait.
What do you think of it?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:28 am

Longshot wrote:Blitzers....but Elf Bliters can't have it. looking unfair for blitzers.
Maybe we should do as in 2nd ED, not strengh,Agility,general skills/Trait but by position:
Blitzers/Special/Lineman/Catcher... skills and trait.
What do you think of it?

To big a change to the rules for my taste. I think its enough that Elf Blitzers get 50% to Leap into the cage to nail the ball handler ...

The rules of the MBBL2 have been tested for almost 2 years now in some form or another. There are a lot of folks that don't agree with the type of league the MBBL2 is, but I set it up because I felt there was a real need to actually test the new rules being discussed on the internet. Try them out and if they don't work scrap them or revise them.

The MBBL2 now has 76 team rosters that you can choose from to play in the league. At this point, I'd be willing to bet that they are all balanced. Two seasons have come and gone with the MBBL2 and in both playoffs, GW based rosters always outnumbered the non-GW based ones.

When I first set up the MBBL2, I was told by Zombie and Juergen (commish of the PBeMBBL) that it would collapse from the extra teams within 6 months. The end of the 2nd season marks 14 months and counting .... in fact the rules of the MBBL2 are also used by Kim's WBBL league. However, its folks like Zombie and Pink Horror who helped make sure the MBBL2 worked, because even though they didn't like the concept of the league, they helped identify broken teams and rules that have been changed and fixed since then.

Okay this is a long "rant" here to basically say that since the MBBL2 actually tests the stuff it gives us some idea if it works or not.

We have a few new skills as well (16) ... and I love 'em ... I'd stand behind each one as being a fun addition to the game (okay I waffle a little on Jam but otherwise

) ... they are not for everyone (Bullet Throw is a very wordy unfortunately), but I've enjoyed using and having them in the league.

You can find the MBBL2, skill page at:
http://www.midgardbb.com/Skills.html

The new skills if anyone wants to ask any questions like the one above about Double Blitz ... they are:

General: Double Dauntless (trait), Kickoff Return (skill), Trip Up (skill)
Agility: Jam (trait), Stiff Arm (skill)
Passing: Bullet Throw (skill), Perfect Spiral (trait)
Strength: Bear Hug (trait), Double Blitz (trait), Juggernaut (skill), Pitch Player (skill), Push (skill)
Physical: Mace Tail, Null Field, Weather Immunity, Wings

Galak

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:32 am

No prob Galak, but my question still reminds:
I know that this is a big change that it wont come but dont you think that 2 nd Ed was maybe better for that? position skill?
i will do a poll about it to see what other players think.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:50 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:When I first set up the MBBL2, I was told by Zombie and Juergen (commish of the PBeMBBL) that it would collapse from the extra teams within 6 months.

Hey, don't make me say things i didn't. I said they were unbalanced, but i never said anything about how long it could last. I'm sure there are enough people worldwide who like their league unbalanced to warrant something like what you have!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 4:08 am

Zombie,

Your actual statement which I wish I could quote directly was to the tune that the league was so imbalanced that the internet teams would overrun the league.

Okay so I'll agree that Zombie did not say the league would die within a several months (that was Juergen). Zombie quote was directed at his belief that a league with 76 teams would quickly get messed up by the unbalanced net teams. The MBBL2 has never had that problem even in its 1st season ... and Zombie did at one point joke (believe?) that the MBBL2 was just a little above the OLBBL.

Part of the fact ... like I said above ... is because I agreed with Zombie that 76 teams without a lot of work will be unbalanced and the internet teams will overrun the league. I've had Zombie's help and others who have never played in the MBBL2 (to me dissecting the arguments of those who disagree with your rules to find the really good ideas is invaluable). I would readily agree with Zombie that when the league was first set-up that several teams still had balance issues ... however, I would after 2 seasons completely disagree that there are any major balance issues left. Out of 80 teams in the league ... 50% are still GW rosters and top teams are usually GW based as well.

Zombie ... I'm not sure what you thoughts are about the MBBL2 these days. I know you don't believe that 80 teams and 53 coaches prove anything about a concept from previous conversations ... at one point you thought we had made "progress" towards balance. Pink Horror looked over the latest rules for the 76 teams in the league and agreed in general that the league was balanced (ie he didn't see any major team balance issues left). There will also be those who feel that a team is pretty good, but so far its all working and the words imbalanced don't come up in the league's conversations very often.

Galak

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 4:08 am

I've only read the skill list you provided here, and not the actual descriptions, but you seem to be having problem classifying them as skills and traits. Traits are not only for the best ones, they're for the ones you supposedly can't learn.

I believe Jam, Perfect Spiral and Double Blitz should be skills.

Similiarly, Stiff Arm, Juggernaut and Pitch Player should be traits.

If you simply put them in the other category to divide them in terms of power, maybe you should be re-writing the overpowered skills to bring them more in line, instead of trying to stuff them into the trait category where they don't belong.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 4:31 am

Guess I reject the idea that traits should be things that "cannot be learned".

The trait idea was really put into place to stop combos. But I also think its a perfectly fine mechanic to seperate skills.

Jam is probably not going to make it to Season 4 of the MBBL2. The PBeM tool is programmed to automatically handle the skill ... but I just don't really like it ... its basically a modified version of 3E Diving Tackle.

As for skill verse trait ... I personally think all the 6 of the skills you mentioned are learnable. So they should all be skills. Personally, I don't have a problem with that really. I'd readily agree to delete Jam from the league and have all 5 be skills. Stiff Arm is a football move ... definitely learnable. How to grabble and throw an opponent ... definitely learnable (see Judo). How best to shoulder block through the toughest opposition (I see training footage all the time of NFL players praticing barrelling into tackling sleds).

So if it really mattered I'd say they were all learnable skills. I would argue that the ability to throw a pass so good that ANYONE could catch it better is something very difficult to learn making it more of a trait. The ability to hit someone and get rebuffed and then have the presense of mind to try to nail them again ... learnable... not easy, but this one I would give on if it really mattered.

Galak

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:30 am

Could a halfling learn to throw an ogre? There's a reason why Throw Team Mate is a racial caracteristic...

Can you really learn to be a Juggernaut? I think you either have it in you or you don't.

I didn't know that Stiff Arm was a football term. Care to tell me what it means exactly? You got me curious.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 12:12 pm

Two things ... 1st to answer your question could a Halfling learn to throw an Ogre .... nope.

Both Juggernaut and Pitch Player have as part of the skill a minimum strength requirement of 5. I wanted to have 2 Big Guy skills in the league and these 2 are them. For an ST 5 player, yes, and I'm not making this up, I think these 2 skill would be learnable.

My ex-wife was 108 pounds but she was a black belt in judo. I've watched her throw 250 pound men a good 5 feet across a dojo. I cannot do this and I'm twice her weight .... but I could learn .... see Pitch Player.

If the blocking sleds are not teaching the lineman of the NFL how to learn the Juggernaut skill, then I'm missing something. The ability to blow through an opponent is what the blocking sleds are all about.

We could go back and forth on this, but since both skills have a minimum of 5 ST to get them. Having them as skills seems fine by me. Mighty Blow still has an ST 3 requirement on it, so doing this with these 2 skills is not even a new mechanic.

As for Stiff Arm. In the NFL, the ball carrier is not allowed to grapple with blockers trying to take the ball from him. However, they are allowed to stiff arm him. This is a move that they are taught. As the blitzer comes charging at them, they hold their arm straight (stiff) and shove it into the blitzer to fend him off and keep running. When a catcher successfully does this and gets away, its said he stiff armed the blitzer.

Galak

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:11 pm

Ah thanks. I've seen the same thing happen in the CFL quite a few times.

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 5:03 pm

In the NFL, I think the only player to be called for a penalty while running with the ball was Larry Czonka. Anyway, I'm giving this example to show that you're allowed to do pratically anything as long as you have the ball in your hands. Emmitt Smith once got his hand stuck in an opponent's face mask during a touchdown run and still didn't get called. I don't think the stiff arm came about because of any rules. It's just the best way to keep your distance. I don't even think it needs to be taught - I've thrown some mean stiff arms as a kid and it pretty much comes naturally. I'm sure the runner would use two arms if he had some way to secure the ball while doing so. What would be the point of grabbing someone who's trying to tackle you? You'll go down with him.

Pink Horror

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:10 pm

Jam should make it cost 2 MV to go into one of the player's tackle zones. Maybe, if that's too good, it could have no effect if the other player passes a strength roll (2 ST = 5+, 3 ST = 4+, 4 ST = 3+...). I'd turn it into a skill at that power level. Jam would be a good way to strip some movement off any gutter runners or wood elf catchers going down the sidelines.

Pink Horror