Dump Off + Pass Block and Turnover

Pakulkan · Post by **Pakulkan** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:48 am

Hello,

First, I'm sorry if you were talk about that previously, but I don't think so.

In the spoanish forum, we are discussing about the turnover in case:

1- Move Team blitz ball carrier of Nonmoving Team.

2- NonM Team Dump Off

3- M Team Pass Block it

4- The guy with Pass Block during the Pass Block Movement falls...

There is Turnover of the Moving Team if the Pass Block guy falls?

Can the Pass Block Guy move after the Pass Block movement as usual (if not falls)?

If there is not turnover if the Pass Block guy falls, he can also stand up and move?

The problem is that in the skills description, is written that Dump Off and Pass Block acts "Out of sequence". But, anycase, if one player of the moving team falls down, there is a turnover.

I think there is not so easy answer for this.

Oh, and the question appears just for fun talking in spanish forum

Daefaroth · Post by **Daefaroth** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:07 am

We have 5 pages worth of discussion on it over here.

viewtopic.php?t=24266&start=0

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:07 am

Go to the rule book, look at turnovers - the first one is "A player on the moving team is Knocked Down" on page 7. So a falling pass blocker of a dump off is a turnover.

Pakulkan · Post by **Pakulkan** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:14 am

Ok, thank you and excuse me for repeat that question.

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Daefaroth wrote:We have 5 pages worth of discussion on it over here.

viewtopic.php?t=24266&start=0

Ok, went there and read it, but didn't want to bring up that thread so I ask my question here.

If in your opponents turn, he declares a pass and you have pass blockers lets say 2 for ease, and the 1st one to move falls, does the second one get to move?

That other thread made it sound as long as its the other players turn, you can trip and fall as many pass blockers as you want, but in your own turn only one pass blocker is allowed to trip.

Being an active passing kind of player and starting with Dark Elf, I think my High Elves might like Dump-off after the ruling is implemented.

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:14 pm

If in your opponents turn, he declares a pass and you have pass blockers lets say 2 for ease, and the 1st one to move falls, does the second one get to move?

I'd say yes, you can only turnover in your own turn and as a normal pass block is in your opo's turn, it isn't a TO.

Stout Youngblood · Post by **Stout Youngblood** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:57 pm

Aliboon wrote:
If in your opponents turn, he declares a pass and you have pass blockers lets say 2 for ease, and the 1st one to move falls, does the second one get to move?
I'd say yes, you can only turnover in your own turn and as a normal pass block is in your opo's turn, it isn't a TO.

ditto!

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:55 am

Exactly, having one pass blocker fall does not stop the other pass blocker from moving. Turnovers only happen during the moving team's turn.

stormsson · Post by **stormsson** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:02 pm

This came up in a game our league was playing last night and we ruled that you couldn't pass block a dump off because of all the complications involved.

I then intended to check on here to see if we were correct and ask a few other questions but the previous post answered nearly all of them.

However the two questions it didn't answer are:

If the pass blocking player is down (but not stunned) and the pass goes over him is he allowed to stand up to block it as it costs 3 squares of movement to stand up. If he has jump up, can he stand and move the 3 pass block squares?

Can you use the leap skill during a pass block?

To the fluff we ruled no on the first point as he's laying face down in the dirt and doesn't even see the pass coming and yes to the second point as, let's be honest, the guy is probably leaping anyway to pluck the ball out of the sky and we quite liked the idea of an elf getting a leg up from his unsuspecting orc opponent to help him grab the ball.

Just wondering what your take on this is?

Stormsson

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:08 pm

There's a post by Galak somewhere on what skills can and can't be used during Pass Block movement.
You definetly cannot stand up to Pass Block, as you can only stand at the start of a players Action, which Pass Block isn't.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:12 pm

Leap specifically says once per action, and the bit about causing a turnover implies that it's usable only when turnovers are possible. If we were to guess the intention of the rules, it would probably be fair to say that you should be able to use Leap during Pass Block, but according to the letter of the law, you cannot. Not even when Pass Blocking a Dump-Off, as the Pass Block is not an Action, which is the only time Leap is allowed to be used.

Subhedgehog · Post by **Subhedgehog** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:31 am

I disagree with tenwit. I think the more meaningful part of the Leap skill (in my mind) is "Making a leap costs the player two squares of movement." Look at Pass Block... "A player with this skill is allowed to move up to three squares... The special move is free, and in no way affects the player’s ability to move in the following turn. Apart from this, however, the move is made using all of the normal rules and skills and the player does have to dodge in order to leave opposing players’ tackle zones."

So, players with leap, who are standing, can use leap as part of their pass block movement. They can only leap once per pass block move (both from the limitations of the extra movement and the limit of one use per action from leap). If they fall down, tough luck.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:59 am

I'd agree with you if the wording of Leap was "A player may only use the Leap skill once per action". But it's not. It is "A player may only use the Leap skill once per Action". Capital A. Pass Block is not a capital-A Action.

Unfortunate but true.

And as a Slann coach, I want you to be right. We just need three out of five BBRC members to agree

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:19 am

I have to agree with tenwit on this. I don't think Leap can be used during a Pass Block. And they definately can't stand up.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:09 am

I would say Yes, but I think the text is a bit fishy as well.

The text for Pass Block

Pass Block (General)
A player with this skill is allowed to move up to three squares when the opposing coach announces that one of his players is going to pass the ball or a bomb...<snip>... Apart from this, however, the move is made using all of the normal rules and skills and the player does have to dodge in order to leave opposing players’ tackle zones.

The text for leap

Leap (Agility)
A player with the Leap skill is allowed to jump to any empty square within 2 squares even if it requires jumping over a player from either team. Making a leap costs the player two squares of movement...<snip> A failed leap causes a turnover, and the moving team’s turn ends immediately. A player may only use the Leap skill once per Action.

Pass Block implies all skills can be used, so no problem there. The perceived problems with Leap are threefold:

1) The Leaping player is not taking an action

2) A failed leap causes a turnover, but the leaping player is not on the moving team, and therefore can't cause a turnover!

Point 1) is simple to get around- leap doesn't specify that the "Action" in question has to be the leaping player's action! In this case, once per action can refer to once during the passing player's action. Note, this rules out using Leap with Kick-Off return, as literally it is nobody's action!

Point 2) is slightly more difficult. It doesn't answer the question one way or the other, but the consequences are so out of whack it may lead one to think they must be doing something wrong. But I think it's just a rulebook error, as the turnover rules on page 7 do not include any allowance for this type of turnover (Of the actions which cause turnovers, only actions by the moving team can cause a turnover for the moving team. The 4 minute rule is different, as is IP.)

I guess by a strict reading, the Leap skill could be considered a specific case over-ruling a general case, but I have always taken the list of turnovers as being absolute, and over-ruling any possible contradictary text. With this contradiction, League commisioners just need to make a ruling, and the clear ruling should be that a failed leap during a Pass Block does not cause a turnover for the moving team!

I suggest the turnover bit (or at least "the moving team phrase") is removed from leap. The list on Page 7 covers this completely, right?