Pass Block too weak in RR2008

[gandresch]

Hi,

Pass Block had two advantages in the past:
1. You could not only try to aggravate passes of the other team, but also could make Dump Off a bit more complicated.
2. The opponent often forgets about this skill

Now you can't use Pass Block on Dump Off any more. This makes it a lot weaker than before and life for Dark Elf or Pro Elf teams a lot easier while it is a lot more difficult to stop these teams from scoring.
In our league the Elf teams are very good, regarding their TV per real strength value. And Pass Block is now simply useless. At first you can't do anything against Dump Offs and second the opponent does not have to be afraid of Pass Block any more.
If i choose a skill for a player in times, where e.g. Diving Catch allows to Catch one easier or catch all the bouncing balls around, i want Pass Block to be a bit more interesting. Why not allow PB on Passes, Dump Off and Handoffs with 3 squares of MA? Then the skill would at least have more sense that it has now.
If my opponent has Diving Tackle i've to think about it, before i dodge. Why shouldn't i take notice of Pass Block before i pass or handoff the ball?

Greetz,
gan

[DoubleSkulls]

I'm sure what you think has changed to down grade pass block, but the only change we made was to stop it working on dump offs.

That is because of the out of turn move in your own turn is a complete nightmare in terms of rules clarifications and sequencing. e.g. what happens if your PBer falls over?

So this does help Dump Off a little bit and weaken PB in relation to it.

[GalakStarscraper]

I concur with Ian .... we needed to change it as the rules nightmare it causes with Dump Off was just too complex to fix in any good way.

Galak

[gandresch]

Hi,

then Dump Off is too strong quite now. There is nothing you can do against a Pro Elf team, that has rolled one double on a catcher (and that will sure happen some day). before you could use Pass Block against it somehow, but now you don't have any chance.
Have you ever thought about negating the +1 of the Quick Pass for Dump Off? That would make it a bit more difficult to keep the ball, but still allows to throw the ball away.
I see, that Pass Blocking on your own turn makes at difficult to handle, but the skill was weak enough before and the more good options of skills you have on a skillroll, the more possibilities you have in play. With such a weak skill as Pass Block is now, i will not think about taking it as second or even third skill.

Greetz,
gan

[Grumbledook]

i've always taken pass block as more of a preventative skill than a hands on skill

ok its gonna suck against players who have nerves of steel

but then tacking tackle against teams with no dodge does as well

dump off isn't that great really, personally I prefer the ball carrier to not get hit at all and pick skills more in line to making that happen

dump off was never really why I took pass block in the first place

a simple change of tactics of hitting the other players around him and marking up the areas around him

set up players with diving tackle/shadowing that he will have to run through, standard stuff that would be been done before the rules change anyway

personally though to reiterate, dumpoff isn't a skill, even with the changes I rate that highly

assuming you put more tackle zones on either the thrower or the catcher (or even both) unless they both have nerves of steel as well, dumping it off may result in him losing the ball anyway

if you are going to blitz the ball carrier and have one person as an assist for 2 dice, no harm moving in a third one for -3 to his dump off

having a couple of players on the catcher will make the catch harder and then again teams like nurgle who can also throw in disturbing presence, dump off isn't looking so rosy now

[gandresch]

Hi,

in our league it shows, that the elf teams (Pro and DE) are simply better than other teams with the same value. We had this situation more than once. Most of the advantage wasn't the skills of both teams but the Dump Off skill itself. Standing next to each other with NoS and one of them with DO makes it nearly impossible for them to lose the ball. That's why they were very successful - i might say, that we had a lot of passing teams at that time and bashers are rare. Perhaps the elves are better controllable if they are capped by other teams.
If you don't have a Nurgle, Chaos, Skaven or Norseteam, Disturbing Presence is something you can't get and you will agree, when i say, that Shadowing and Diving Tackle are not the skills an elf will fear in his offense. Usually they just hand off and run away or simply have MA8 and do not care for Shadowing.
Most of the other teams had 2 possibilities before: Take Pass Block or use Multiblock on both (i prefer that one), which now both are impossible. That just makes strong teams even stronger and more difficult to control.

I wanted to optain, that you perhaps think about the balancing at this part of the game . It will make the game more interesting.

Greetz,
gan

[plasmoid]

Pass block and multiblock?

I find that mighty blow and tackle/piling-on is a lot better for beating elfs.
I certainly don't think that pass block is good enough to stop them.
And it wasn't good enough before the review either.

I think it's a weak skill tho - so I could see reason to house rule a buff

[Grumbledook]

gan, i'm going to have to beg to differ with you

there are ways to play to defend against it, if they are handing off and running away, you should have players positioned that they can't be running where they want

you can then also go after the player they handed off to, they can't all have dump off and NOS

and the other side of the coin, pro elves are one of the hardest teams to stop scoring, but they don't like a war of attrition and clock control on your drives is important

I agree pass block and dump off dynamics have changed, and you could houserule passblock to how it was

I didn't have a problem with it before, and don't now ;]

though I agree the rule change was a good one cause not all leagues are able to work out the previous niggling questions regarding passblock and dump off in an amicable manner

some coaches are just a pain in the bum!

[gandresch]

Hi,

Multiblock does not work on blitz now, so you can't blitz them both, hehe.

Thank you for your answers. This is a forum, where experiences can be written down, so BloodBowl get's better in the future. I tolerate the new rule and i see, that is has sense. On the other way i wanted to tell, what problems we had in our league ... and that not all decisions are accepted evidently

Greets,
gan

[zephard]

Gandresch,

Have ye played in some PbEM leagues, the one I play in seems to have a good bit of ways to reduce how often Dump Off works on my DE team where both runners have NOS and Pass.

They normally do it by attrition and removing players.

[Grogmir]

Yes the change to Dump Off has made it stronger, but I think you are forgetting the other changes that will effect Pass block.

With the Safe Throw and Diving Catch changes its a lot more likely that teams will focus on a passing game. Giving you much more chance to use that pass block in its intended format.

The change to DOff not only makes that stronger - at a time when other passing skills where also given a small boost. But simplifies lots of rule queires.

All in all another great change in LRB5b for me.