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Going Down because of spiked ball
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:06 am
by Dwarfpete
Hi,
this came up to our last game.
A player uses the card "spiked ball" from the dirty-tricks-deck.
In the drive the player using the card was succesfully blocking (in his turn) an oposing player who had the ball. The ball bounces in the hands of one of his own players, but this player misses the catch. After the "stab-attack" against him (because of the "spiked ball) this player ended up "stunned". Does this mean, that his turn ends, because one of his players "on the moving team" was going down?
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:04 am
by Grumbledook
I'd say yes
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:05 am
by Digger Goreman
I believe that's one of the turnovers from page 6 or 7 of the rules....
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:48 pm
by Xeterog
lets look at it:
1)Spiked ball is treated like the stab when someone fails to pickup/catch the ball. (page 38)
2)A stab attack can injure a player, but does not knock them prone. (page 47)
3)Being injured is not on the list of turnovers (page 7).
4)failing to catch a bouncing ball is not on the list of turnovers (page 7)
therefore I do not believe this would be a turnover.
This is similar to throwing a goblin..if the goblin was not holding the ball and is eaten or fails to land on his feet and is injured, there is not a turnover, as the player is not knocked prone, rather is placed prone (or not even that if eaten or thrown out of bounds)
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:36 am
by Fat_Emrys
That's not how I'd interpret the rules.
If the stab/spiked ball breaks armour then I'd say the player is knocked down and so the turn ends. The "placed prone" turnover exception to rule 1 lists cases where an active player goes down without having to make an injury roll, which isn't the case with a stab as the player's dropped as a result of an injury roll.
The turnover rules don't say that being injured causes a turnover because under normal circumstance a player is knocked down before the injury roll is made (and has therefore already ended the turn).
TTM without a ball doesn't cause a turnover only because of the specific exception listed in rule 7.
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:33 am
by Ullis
"Knocked down" is a clear rule and the rulebook states the cases where someone is knocked down individually.
When someone is knocked down, the player might get injured. In this case it's a result of being knocked down. But players can get injured in other ways too.
On the other hand, a turnover occurs when a player from the moving team is knocked down. The rules do not state anything about getting injured and the Stab skill very specifically does not say that the victim is knocked down.
So, no turn over because the player failing the catch roll is not knocked down.
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:05 am
by Schmee
Ullis wrote:So, no turn over because the player failing the catch roll is not knocked down.
So would this mean that when a chainsaw kicks back and injures its wielder it doesn't cause a turnover?
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:09 am
by DoubleSkulls
Ullis did you read the question?
Due to spiked ball the player attempting the catch was stunned - so yes it is a turnover. Pretty clear IMO - its the first on the list of turnovers. If it was a failed catch, without an armour break, then no turnover.
TTM has special exceptions built in.
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:45 pm
by tenwit
I've just checked the rules and I'd say that Ullis' point is fair. Maybe not correct, but certainly worthy of consideration for a rules clarification. The first on the list of turnovers is:
1. A player on the moving team is Knocked Down (being injured by the crowd or being Placed Prone is not a turnover unless it is a player from the active team holding the ball … e.g. skills like Diving Tackle, Piling On and Wrestle count as being Placed
Prone)
Stab says:
If the score beats the victim’s Armour value then they have been wounded and an Injury roll must be made.
So if the condition is that the player must be Knocked Down (and not necessarily armour-broken or injured), then Stab definitely bypasses the rule as written. Either Stab could say "Knocked Down" instead of "wounded", or the turnover rule could say "Knocked Down or injured".
I think.
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:05 pm
by DoubleSkulls
Sorry, but am I only one who thinks that is rules lawyering nonsense?
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:12 pm
by tenwit
If there's a possibility of an argument in a tournament, it's not nonsense. Besides, there's plenty of BB-playing rules lawyers out there. You and Tom have put years of effort into silencing them as best you can, here's one more chance to get one up on them.
Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:04 pm
by Darkson
ianwilliams wrote:Sorry, but am I only one who thinks that is rules lawyering nonsense?
No more so than the "Stunty vs Stab" debate, which got a clarification in LRB6.
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:54 am
by Xeterog
ianwilliams wrote:
Due to spiked ball the player attempting the catch was stunned - so yes it is a turnover. Pretty clear IMO - its the first on the list of turnovers. If it was a failed catch, without an armour break, then no turnover.
TTM has special exceptions built in.
but being stunned is not first on the list of turnovers (it's not on the list at all)..being knocked down (not placed prone) is.
In fact, I don't see being injured in the list of turnovers anywhere:
1. A player on the moving team is Knocked Down (being injured
by the crowd or being Placed Prone is not a turnover unless it is
a player from the active team holding the ball … e.g. skills like
Diving Tackle, Piling On and Wrestle count as being Placed
Prone) or
2. A passed ball, or hand-off, is not caught by any member of the
moving team before the ball comes to rest or
3. A player from the moving team attempts to pick up the ball
and fails (note: failing a catch roll, as opposed to a pick up, is by
itself never a turnover) or
4. A touchdown is scored or
5. The four-minute time limit for the turn runs out or
6. A pass attempt is fumbled even if a player from that team
catches the fumbled ball or
7. A player with the ball is thrown or is attempted to be thrown
using Throw Team-Mate and fails to land successfully (including
being eaten or squirming free from an Always Hungry roll) or
8. A player is ejected by the referee for a foul.
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:57 am
by Grumbledook
you can't be stunned unless you are knocked down...
dont' see many stunned players standing up
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:49 am
by Wylder
Successful stabs knock people down. I don't even care what the rules say, it's just ridiculous to say otherwise.