Diving Catch, +1 to Hand Offs?

[Aliboon]

Hello, with the new DC, do you get the +1 bonus for hand offs? I'm thinking not cos nowhere in the hand off description does it mention accurate passes, which is what is needed to trigger the +1 bonus.

[plasmoid]

Exactly.
So it ain't no good for the running game, but added to encourage the passing game. (You know - the stuff where you use the lose-o-meter to measure ranges).

Cheers
Martin

[Milo]

The rules state that a hand-off is treated exactly like a pass, except no roll is needed to determine if the pass is accurate. A hand-off does give you the +1 modifier on the catch roll that you get from an accurate pass. I would rule that you would get the additional +1 from Diving Catch.

[Darkson]

And you'd rule incorrect.

In LRB5 and earlier, you'd be correct, but for LRB6/CRP they removed all mention of "treat as an accurate pass".
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=30090&start=15

A hand-off is when the ball is simply handed to another player, friend or foe, in an adjacent square. The Hand-Off Action is added to the list of Actions like Move, Block, Blitz and Pass. A coach may only declare one Hand-Off Action per turn. A player may move before performing the hand-off, but once he attempts to hand-off the ball, the player performing the Hand-Off Action may not move any farther that turn, even if he has spare MA left. The ball may not be handed off in the opponent's turn. If the ball is handed off and comes to rest without being caught by any member of the moving team, it causes a turnover.

No dice roll is required to see if the player attempting the handoff is successful – it automatically hits the targeted player.
However, the player that the ball is handed off to must roll to see if he catches the ball (see Catching the Ball on page 13). Use these modifiers for the Catch roll:
Catching a hand-off ..................................... +1
Per opposing tackle zone on the player ...... -1

[Edit - [Mod hat on] and why are you necro'ing a year old post? ]

[Milo]

Sorry, Darkson, didn't mean to bring back an old thread. It was on the first page of posts and I didn't even bother to check the date, just saw an interesting question and tried to offer my $0.02. I did try to phrase my response as "I would rule this way" rather than "this is the way it is", because I recognize a lot of little changes like that are hard to pick up on your umpteenth reading of the rules.

Thanks for the clarification, though. I'm glad I posted, if for no other reason than to get the definitive answer myself.

Milo

[GalakStarscraper]

Actually Darkson ... Milo's answer was wrong for both LRB 5.0 and CRP. I had removed all references to passing from the hand-off rules when I re-wrote that section for LRB 5.0.

Galak

[nyarlathotep]

I'm glad Milo necroposted too, because I would have thought the same thing.

There are hazards to skimming the rules...

[Milo]

Okay, okay... but I would have been right for LRB4! (If, of course, that Diving Catch rule had been around back then.)

[Kort]

I have been thinking about the fact that Diving Catch works with Accurate Passes but not with Hand-Offs.

I can think of several reasons why this design has been chosen. First of all, the skill name would be somewhat awkward if it worked with Hand-Offs. Second, I understand that the goal was to favor the passing game but not necessarily the running game, which is already ubiquitous. Finally, the only way to get the skill accepted was to make a small incremental change, since any change always draws some opposition no matter what.

Would anybody happen to know if there are any genuine balance concerns that would prevent to change the skill to give a +1 modifier to Hand-Offs ? I can think of two problems on top of my head. First, this modified skill would negate one TZ on any AG4 Catcher, thus giving them even more ease to defeat any defense they face. However, Nerves of Steel, while generally not accessible on a normal roll, would give the same benefits and even more. Added to the probability of a +AG stat increase, this kind of skill-up can be obtained 8 times out of 36, which corresponds to a probability of almost 1/4. Second, the modified skill would help Stunty AG3 teams to develop an almost unbeatable running game. However, only Lizardmen could be a real concern here since.

I think allowing Diving Catch to work with Hand-offs would help AG3 teams in general, in particular Humans who are quite fast but end up failing any kind of ball handling 1 time out of 9 no matter what, usually with disastrous consequences. Currently, I think Catch and Diving Catch are two skills that are generally too situational to be considered, especially on an AG3 player. The proposed change would certainly make me want to develop an offensive Catcher, something I simply do not even try to do with the current rules.

Any comments ?

[Greyhound]

if diving catch was working on hand off all my skinks would get it.

Players with access to agility skills have all (correct me if I'm wrong) AG3 or more.
This means that it would give an automatic 2+ to receive the ball (pending tackle zone). So anyone capable of accessing agility skills would trivialise the reception of handoff.

I think it would make a good skill very good, and I would really consider it on my lizard team. Right now it's a tier 4 skill, skinks tend to get Catch/Side Step/Sure Feet first.
If I could use diving catch on handoff it would give me the opportunity to have a few diving catch on the field and essentially do two hand off at:
4+ (throw), 2+ catch, 2+ hand off. which is giving me some amazing move.

essentially the skill doesn't have to be better than it already is.

[Kort]

First of all, let me tell you that I totally agree with your concerns. I can clearly understand the potential for cheesiness. However, I still wonder if it is true in practice.

This means that it would give an automatic 2+ to receive the ball (pending tackle zone). So anyone capable of accessing agility skills would trivialise the reception of handoff.

True, but would that be such a bad thing though ? Would that make AG3 teams and especially Lizardmen unbeatable ? The skill does not help on defense, only on offense. It is very situational and needs to be spammed to reach its full efficiency. Many AG3 agility-oriented teams, such as Humans and Amazons, would definitely not be overpowered because of it at medium/high TV. I am not so sure about Undead and Lizardmen though.

Right now it's a tier 4 skill, skinks tend to get Catch/Side Step/Sure Feet first.

Then Diving Catch is what I would call a mediocre skill. I would also consider Shadowing and Diving Tackle for Skinks, to turn them into potential markers.
Do Skinks often get more than 3 skill-ups ? My experience is that they die pretty fast usually.

Actually, I would really be glad if Diving Catch could be considered as a serious alternative to Sure Feet or even Side Step, since it would make skill selection more strategic than it is right now.

[Greyhound]

I would also consider Shadowing

Now you're talking doubles and the list of good skill is looooong.

and Diving Tackle for Skinks, to turn them into potential markers.

agreed but that's not for the same skinks as the ones getting catch/diving catch. Some skinks run the ball, other just hunt for preys (and die young)

Do Skinks often get more than 3 skill-ups ? My experience is that they die pretty fast usually.

True, but there are the odd survivors. There are two types of the skinks, the ones you put in dangerous situations and these ones recycle a fair bit, and the ones that you keep protecting and these ones don't get blocked more than three times per game which isn't enough to kill them all.

Actually, I would really be glad if Diving Catch could be considered as a serious alternative to Sure Feet or even Side Step, since it would make skill selection more strategic than it is right now.

Skink building is actually quiet strategic, there are several options, and diving catch is not a bad one (after catch). Skinks are poor passers, but you can get the odd double for Hail Mary Pass which would then change your game. I have plans for diving catch, I think it's a good skill now, but I don't think it should be better than the tier one skills (for skinks)
Side Step
Catch
Diving Tackle
Sure Feet.

[Kort]

I misspoke for Shadowing, for some reason I thought it was an AG skill (Probably because Dark Elf Assassins have it). Sorry for that.

You seem to value Diving Catch much higher than I do. Right now, I would probably rank it as on of the worst AG skills, just above Sprint (and Leap for AG3 players). That being said, I could be totally wrong. I would definitely like to hear about successful and systematic uses of Diving Catch.

Let me allow to come back to your 4+ Pass / 2+ Pass Catch / 2+ Hand-Off Catch scenario. I would say that if you are in a position to do this kind of play, you definitely deserve to score a TD because you have caught your opponent out of position. In many cases however, you will have to make some additional dodges and deal with some TZs on your Catchers... assuming they have not been blitzed down ! But even in this idyllic situation, and your turn will end in failure at least 1 time out of 4 due to the 4+ Pass, and it is unlikely that you will have a free reroll for that action, so you will have to burn your team reroll half of the time in the process. While I agree with the devastating potential of this kind of play, I would probably not base my whole strategy on it.

[Greyhound]

4+/2+/2+ with 1 reroll is ... riskable and you can move the ball a far far distance with skinks.
So you can switch aisle, go from your back field to a cage 6 squares away of the TD line and so forth.

I sometime try that, Leave the skink on his own with the ball WAY at the back and move on. By the time my opponent breaks the wall and start aiming for the ball carrier (I'm not talking skaven here!) I have prepared a pocket somewhere and I can speed the ball upfield.

It's not a complete win but it's nice. Without diving catch you rely on 4+/3+/3+ which is a completely different level of risk!

[Grumbledook]

practically no one took diving catch before the change

the change was made both to make it a more desirable skill choice and also to try and get more passing into the game, whilst giving a boost to AG3 players

2+ hand offs in a tackle zone for AG4 players would be sick and verging on broken for a skill they can take without needing a double

currently I think the only players who can do that is a the pact dark elf (extra arms) and elf throwers / runners (nerves of steel)