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Touchdown and sequence of play.
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:26 pm
by styphon
I have an interesting one here for the BBRC. When scoring a touchdown during your teams play it occurs at the end of an action. But what if that action results in a turnover?
E.g. A player is standing in the end zone and the ball is next to him. There is an opponent on the other side of the ball. Another of your players with frenzy blitzes the opponent resulting in a push back onto the ball. The ball scatters onto the first player, who catches the ball. The blitzer must then take a second block against the opponent, which results in a skull. The player goes down and a turnover occurs.
But what happens next. Technically both the turnover AND the touchdown occur at exactly the same time. Does the turnover cause an immediate switch to the opponents turn, in which case a touchdown occurs according to the "Scoring in your opponents turn." rule? Or, does the touchdown occur and the turnover is ignored?
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:52 pm
by Wylder
At the end of the action the player is lying on the ground and has dropped the ball.
The touchdown does not occur at the same time as the turnover, as it isn't really a turnover until the player is placed prone, the armor roll is complete and the ball scattered. As this is the end of the action and the player is no longer in position for a TD, there is no TD made.
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:04 pm
by Fat_Emrys
No, in the scenario described neither the player being blocked nor the player blocking had the ball.
My feel is that the referee would whistle for a TD after the first block scattered the ball into the active team's player's hands, so the second block wouldn't be thrown.
Edit: Been checking my rulebook. Under "Scoring touchdowns in your turn" it says
SCORING TOUCHDOWNS IN YOUR TURN
A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their
players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while
holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.
Whether or not the frenzy player falls over after the second block, at the end of his action a player from his team is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball.
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:31 pm
by styphon
So the fact that it's a turnover doesn't affect the possible touchdown at all?
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:06 am
by Fat_Emrys
No, it doesn't seem to.
A turnover just ends your turn, it doesn't invalidate anything that happened as part of the last action of that turn.
I know the Vampire/Blood Lust scoring thing is almost an exception, but in that case (a vamp having to bite for the score to count), if the vampire fails to do so he's removed so would no longer be standing in the endzone.
I'm not sure what would happen if that happened but the dropped ball bounced to another vampire standing alongside, though ... but that's a whole different can of worms.
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:33 am
by Digger Goreman
Rulebook wrote:SCORING IN THE OPPONENT’S TURN
In some rare cases a team will score a touchdown in the
opponent’s turn. For example, a player holding the ball could be
pushed into the End Zone by a block. If one of your players is
holding the ball in the opposing team's End Zone at any point
during your opponent's turn then your team scores a touchdown
immediately, but must move their Turn marker one space along
the Turn track to represent the extra time the players spend
celebrating this unusual method of scoring!
Whether at the end of a block, a dropped ball... whatever....
(
) Edited out wrong answer....
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:35 am
by Darkson
The turnover only ends your turn once ALL "events" such as AV rolls, Inj rolls and scattering balls have been completed, so if the ball scatters to one of your players in an endzone because another of your players fell over eg a GFI), then the Touchdown happens before the turnover (though remember a TD is a turnover in itself).
However,....
In the scenario the OP posted above, there wouldn't be a 2nd Block by the Frenzy player, because the TD (after the first Block) would cause the turnover then, meaning the Blitzer wouldn't have the chance to skull out.
[Edit - DG, you're wrong.]
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:53 am
by Digger Goreman
Okey, dokey... which part... or both...?
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:58 am
by Darkson
You're correct on scoring in an opponents turn, but that's not what the OP was asking about.
You're wrong on the timing for vamps.
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:04 am
by Grumbledook
SCORING TOUCHDOWNS IN YOUR TURN
A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their
players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while
holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions. As
soon as this happens, play stops, the crowd cheers and whistles
and cheerleaders dance about waving pom-poms. The coach of
the scoring team has our permission to leap about and cheer a
bit too, while moving the score marker one space along the
scoring track on the Playing Pitch.
Any player may enter either End Zone at any time, even if they
are not carrying the ball. If the ball is thrown to them and they
catch it, or they are able to pick up the ball while in their
opponent’s End Zone, they score a touchdown. Note, however,
that in order to score a touchdown the player must end his Action
standing in the End Zone; if the player failed to make a Dodge
roll, for example, and thus was Knocked Down in the End Zone
then he would not score a touchdown.
A touchdown is a turnover yes, though that doesn't mean he scores then.
If you have a player with frenzy who has the ball, and he blocks a sidesteper from the other team who is in the end zone. If he gets a pushback this isn't a touchdown as he hasn't finished his action, because he has frenzy he has to block again and then ends up out side the endzone and doesn't score.
Vampires have to bite first and the touchdown is given after their action.
In the OP example why would that suddenly be a touchdown when the active player on the moving team hasn't finished his action? Based on the above the frenzy player would get the second block and may skull down causing a turnover. I see this as pretty straightforward given the above.
The question is that should the touchdown then be awarded cause it is the end of the players action. I think yes it should and then you kick off like normal. The OP was asking though if the turnover counts before the touchdown which means that it is then the other teams turn. As per the rules that if any of your players are standing with the ball during the other teams turn then it is a touchdown. Because you start the turn in the endzone standing with the ball, the other team would lose a turn as would you for scoring in their turn.
The rules aren't obviously clear I don't think as to which senario is correct, though I would say the first is and that you scored at the end of your turn and not in the opponents turn.
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:56 am
by duckwing
Remember that the TD is a turnover, so as soon as a player finds himself standing in the opponents endzone the current action is ended. This means the frenzied player won't get to throw the second block, his action is ended by the turnover. It also means that the vampire is standing in the endzone with the ball before he is removed from the pitch, and thus scores a TD.
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:27 am
by Darkson
The rules wrote:TURNOVERS
[snip]
4. A touchdown is scored or
[snip]
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:29 am
by Johnny KTOU
Remember that the TD is a turnover, so as soon as a player finds himself standing in the opponents endzone the current action is ended.
Actually no, the player needs to finish the Action, and then it's a TD. The second block from a frenzy player needs to be made.
P15
A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their
players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while
holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.
And for the vampires, in the Blood Lust skill P64
If he was holding the ball it bounces from the
square he occupied when he was removed, and he will not score a
Touchdown (even if he gets into the End Zone while holding the ball
before being removed).
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:34 am
by Darkson
The 2nd Block doesn't need to be made, as a different player is scoring the TD, meaning that the Touchdown Turnover stops any other player from finishing their action.
You are correct that a Vamp that fails the BloodLust roll doesn't score (it says as much in the Blood Lust rules), but if the ball they drop is caught by another Vamp (or Thrall for that matter) in the EZ, then the TZ is scored, which is what the poster said above earlier - o-one is arguing abouyt the Vamp that failed it's BL roll.
Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:35 am
by Grumbledook
@duckwing + darkson
that point is valid if it was your player in the opposing teams turn, for your own turn just standing the ball in the endzone is not a touchdown until the end of your players action
as I pointed out in the thread before and Johnny backed up me up with
how is it a touchdown turnover if it isn't the end of the players action?