Stunty mandatory?

[Mootaz]

I have a maybe somewhat heretical question.
The Stunty skill (unlike Frenzy, which we know is mandatory) does not state that it MUST be used.
Unless otherwise stated, skill usage is optional. So if my opponent breaks the armor on my stunty, I should be able to NOT "use" stunty and therefore not receive the +1 to injury.
I KNOW that this is not how it is intended, but I see nothing in the rules that contradicts this.

[Grumbledook]

none of the negative skills are optional, no point otherwise ;]

isn't it an extraordinary skill anyway, aren't those always active?

[Mootaz]

But where in the rules can this be found? Extraordinary skills are not always "on", you can opt to not use Stab or Regeneration, e.g. The only special clause for Extraordinary skills is that they still work while Prone or Stunned.

[Stout Youngblood]

On page 14 skills description, "Many players have skills such as catch, pass etc. Unless stated otherwise in the skill description you never have to use a skill just because the player’s got it, and you can choose to use a skill that affects a dice roll after rolling the dice."

In the Stunty skill description on Page 47, "The player is so small that they are very difficult to tackle because they can duck underneath opposing players’ outstretched arms and run between their legs. On the other hand, Stunty players are just a bit too small to throw the ball very well, and are easily injured. To represent these things a player with the Stunty skill may ignore any enemy tackle zones on the square he is moving to when he makes a Dodge roll (i.e., they always end up with a +1 Dodge roll modifier), but must subtract 1 from the roll when they pass. In addition, this player treats a roll of 7 and 9 on the Injury table after any modifiers have been applied as a KO'd and Badly Hurt result respectively rather than the normal results."

So they may ignore enemy tackle zones but must suffer the modified injuries.

[Mootaz]

OK, the -1 on passes is a "must". But the rest is not.

Contrast it with the skill description of Mighty Blow. The skill description only states "add 1 to ...", there's no optional thing about it. And we know that Mighty Blow is optional.
Same with stunty. It says "on 1 7-9 KO, etc.", but it doesn't say that you MUST do this.

[Rodge]

I think Mootaz is coming from the angle that anyone can choose not to use a skill like stunty at all at the player's discretion, so wouldn't be subject to the ruling of stunty with respect to KOs/casualtys.

However, this is defeated by this:

The Stunty skill (unlike Frenzy, which we know is mandatory) does not state that it MUST be used.

By his own argument, surely the follow up from frenzy is only mandatory if you choose to use the frenzy skill? If you choose not to use the skill, then you will not follow up?

As we know, this is not an option hence all the negatives of stunty apply always.

For the stab/regen examples, I don't see anywhere that you can choose not to use the regeneration skill. The rule states that you roll for regeneration after casualty/apothecary rolls, it doesn't state any choice. I believe you can choose to fail your regeneration roll, but you can't choose to ignore the skill. Stab on the other hand does specifically state you have a choice between stabbing and blocking.

[funnyfingers]

In addition, this player treats a roll of 7 and 9 on the Injury table after any modifiers have been applied as a KO'd and Badly Hurt result respectively rather than the normal results.

It doesn't say MAY. It says TREATS. If you treat something you just do it.

treat - "to deal with or regard in a certain manner"

[Mootaz]

In addition, this player treats a roll of 7 and 9 on the Injury table after any modifiers have been applied as a KO'd and Badly Hurt result respectively rather than the normal results.

It doesn't say MAY. It says TREATS. If you treat something you just do it.

treat - "to deal with or regard in a certain manner"

Then look at Mighty Blow. It doesn't say MAY, it says "add 1 to armor or injury roll". The only "may" in Mighty Blow is about what you "may NOT" do, namely using it for BOTH armor and injury.

[Stout Youngblood]

In addition, this player treats a roll of 7 and 9 on the Injury table after any modifiers have been applied as a KO'd and Badly Hurt result respectively rather than the normal results.

It doesn't say MAY. It says TREATS. If you treat something you just do it.

treat - "to deal with or regard in a certain manner"

Then look at Mighty Blow. It doesn't say MAY, it says "add 1 to armor or injury roll". The only "may" in Mighty Blow is about what you "may NOT" do, namely using it for BOTH armor and injury.

...but must subtract 1 from the roll when they pass. In addition, this player treats a roll of 7 and 9 on the Injury table after any modifiers have been applied as a KO'd and Badly Hurt result respectively rather than the normal results.

The use of "In addition" right after a statement using "MUST" implies the additional comment is also manditory.

[alternat]

The use of "In addition" right after a statement using "MUST" implies the additional comment is also manditory.

even if it doesn't, there is no "may" in the statement that follows.

[funnyfingers]

For Mighty Blow simply put it goes with: "Unless otherwise stated in the skill description"

I could almost say it could be worded better but it really is worded fine. It explains what stunty does and give you an option to avoid tackle zones. Pretty clear cut really.

[mattgslater]

I'm with Mootaz. The rule states that the effect occurs when the triggering conditions are met, not that the player must use the skill when the triggering conditions are met. The rules say that a skill is optional unless it is specifically stated to be mandatory.

That said, as a league commissioner, I'd laugh and issue an errata by fiat. Of course, this would lead to a huge fight over some minor detail like whether your opponent should be given the decision or it should be straight-up mandatory, or if I'm wrong in my interpretation. Offhand, I'd guess that the second camp would win out if that's where the battle lines draw.

[Ullis]

You're trying to add an unnecessary step to skill use. What you're aiming at is this:

Let's use a dodge as an example:

1. I roll a dodge roll. I fail the roll.
2. I have Dodge. I elect to use the skill.
3. Now, since I elected to use the skill, I may reroll the die if I so choose.

Step 2 is wholly unnecessary. The following is enough

1. I roll a dodge roll. I fail.
2. Now, since I have Dodge, I may reroll the die if I so choose.

Skill use doesn't need to be that complicated but understanding it is easier if you break it down like this. The wording of Frenzy has redundant parts where it states in the beginning that you must always use this skill. The numerous "must" -words in the text describing the effects are more than enough.

If I understood the argument right, then Decay would also be optional. There's nothing in the wording of Stunty that implies that the player can choose not to apply the negative effects.

[Don__Vito]

Wow...

I thought I'd left these RIDICULOUS rules intepretations long behind me when I stopped playing that stupid Warhammer game?

Try telling me Stunty isn't mandatory at a tourney, I'll take you outside and stick you in a wheelie bin!

[spubbbba]

Wow...

I thought I'd left these RIDICULOUS rules intepretations long behind me when I stopped playing that stupid Warhammer game?

Try telling me Stunty isn't mandatory at a tourney, I'll take you outside and stick you in a wheelie bin!

Agreed, if you try hard enough you can find ways to exploit almost any rules wording. The only way around it is to have a 1000 page rulebook or pages and pages of FAQ's.

Even when GW actually does proper FAQ's there are usually a fews questions in there that are so stupid that it's obvious it's just to counter some sad beardy git trying to be clever.