Talk Fantasy Football

During setup prior to Kick Off, all the rules from LRB say are the following:

"Each coach may set up 11 players between
their End Zone and the half way line, and within the
following restrictions:

1. The kicking team always sets up first.

2. No more than two players may be set up in
each wide zone (ie, a maximum of four
players may be split wide, two on each flank).

3. At least three players must be set up next to
the half way line, on the line of scrimmage."

What happens when someone has an illegal setup? There is nothing in the LRB that indicates what happens if someone has an illegal setup. Therefore, the unwritten rule seems to be if you call the Player on it, they simply correct the setup to a legal one, and if you FAIL to call them before the Kick-Off has been resolved (ie Turn 1 begins), it is simply too bad and they get away with it. This seems fine, at first...

However, then it becomes a valid TACTIC; since you have nothing to lose other than setting up again, why not ALWAYS try it? If you get away with it, even BETTER!

Therefore, I feel you should be able to call Illegal Procedure ANYTIME during a match when someone has too many players on the pitch. Likewise, if they have an illegal setup, you should be able to call IP. They way we handle IP, you give the calling coach a FREE ReRoll, so this rule works well.

What are the rest of you doing in this instance? If there is no penalty for doing it, it can be abused.

After the first time it was spotted in our league, we more or less decided that fielding more than 11 players, intentionally or not, is not wanted. As you already stated it encourages fair play if you don't do something about it. When such an error is spotted, we let the opposing coach decide which player has to go off the pitch. Since nobody wants to lose his Big Guy, nobody dares to cheat this way anymore.

I always check my opponent has set up right before we do the kickoff and my own team for that matter.

You gotta be kidding me. Are you seriously advocating deliberately using an illegal set-up in the hope that your opponent won't notice and thereby gain advantage? Or are you suggesting that there needs to be a rule that prevents coaches from doing so?

Yes, I always check too, as do most coaches, but there ARE times when someone simply does it unintentionally (too much to drink, et al). The problem really gets bad when you consider new players. Granted, it IS part of the game, and I have ZERO problem with people doing it (cheating at setup); you need to learn to ALWAYS check your opponents setup, period. Still, since there is no rule for if you are CALLED for it, it is actually a very valid tactic, and you would actually be stupid NOT to try and get away with it every chance you get.

Therefore, a rule MUST be enforced that somehow punishes the offending player; otherwise, there is absolutely NO reason NOT to try it everytime you setup. Likewise, a rule MUST be enforced that allows IP to be called during any turn if too many players are on the pitch. Our house rule awards the calling Coach a Free Team RR, and forces the offending Coach to setup correctly. Likewise, if it is called during a turn, it is IP and the calling Coach gets a Free Team RR AND chooses which Player must go to Reserves. We have even discussed having to roll for the Player just like he had fouled (ie sent off for duration on a 6). We DO allow the Coach to argue the call, but ALL this does is keeps the calling Coach from getting the RR; the setup/correct number of players on pitch MUST be corrected regardless.

As stated, according to the LRB, if you manage to get away with an illegal setup, NOTHING happens. Also, if you are CALLED for an illegal setup, NOTHING happens (except you correct the formation). Finally, in the case of too many players on the field, once the first turn starts, NOTHING can be done about it; you simply get away with it until a TD is scored or the half ends. There NEEDS to be official rules for this, because currently, using the LRB, it makes no sense NOT to try and cheat in this manner...there are NO drawbacks!

i always thought that the IP rules covered any form of illegal procedure, not just forgetting to move your turn counter. So an illegal setup if it is not remedied before kick-off results in loss of a reroll, but we tend not to let it get that far, and point out problems before it comes to an IP.

Saying you would be stupid not to try it, this would also mean you are deliberatly trying to cheat, which I think is stupid, unfair and against the whole spirit of the game. This would be very poor gamesmanship.

Agreed. To quote the Young Ones:

(trying to get video working)

MIKE: Maybe you shouldn't have poured all of that washing-up liquid in it.

VYVYAN: But it says here, Michael look, "Ensure machine is clean, and free from dust"!

MIKE: Yeah, but it don't say, "Ensure the machine is full of washing-up liquid"!

VYVYAN: No, but it doesn't say, "Ensure the machine isn't full of washing-up liquid"!

MIKE: Well, it wouldn't would it! I mean, it doesn't say, "Ensure you don't chop up your video machine with an axe, put all the bits in a plastic bag, and bung 'em down the lavatory"!

VYVYAN: Doesn't it? Well maybe that's what's going wrong!

This falls under the remit of the commish in my opinion. If you tried that in my league I'd boot you out.

Xynok wrote: Still, since there is no rule for if you are CALLED for it, it is actually a very valid tactic, and you would actually be stupid NOT to try and get away with it every chance you get.<-snip->

There NEEDS to be official rules for this, because currently, using the LRB, it makes no sense NOT to try and cheat in this manner...there are NO drawbacks!

Frankly, I'm amazed. How about:
"If thou art a complete and utter w*nker, thou shalt not play BB."

I'd walk away if I felt somebody was deliberately cheating or trying to. Take the concession, WTF.
If I was in a good mood...

There is absolutely no reason to bring in extra rules to discourage cheating. Peer pressure, public opinion and/or a slap up the side of the head do the job better than any rules could ever do.
You cannot legislate for tossers.

How about 3 strikes and out?
"You've set up illegally mate, 12 players"
"Sorry I'll reset"
"You've got 3 in the wide zone dude!"
"My mistake"
"'Fraid you've done it again..."
"What was I thinking?"
" You've done it again!!"
"I'm sor..."*...SMACK!...*

In the LRB doesn't say you cann't put the dice allways with the six up, it doesn't say you have to count the squares correctly, it doesn't say it's the up side wich counts in the dice....

Or by what matter, in the LRB doesn't say you cann't punch the other coach, smash his head.... or, in my case, roll over him like a deathroller....

There are a lot of things wich needn't to be in the LRB - they should be in players head!!!....

If a coach in my league did that often... or it was because he (or she) was very distracted, in this case or would set up again, or, if too late for that, the other coach picks the lineman to get out....
if he wasn't know for being very distracted then it would be his last match around here....

There are some things wich you don't jsut because if you do people would (or at least should) kick you around....

Or, if you are like me, just because it isn't right, but that's me....

Deathwing wrote:"If thou art a complete and utter w*nker, thou shalt not play BB."

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Ian

Please, don't misinterpret or go off on a tangent.

Do you agree that an OFFICIAL ruling is needed here?
Is losing a RR enough?
What happens if you DON'T spot it before the Kick-Off...is it simply "tough luck?" What happens if it was unintentional? Do you "boot" someone from the League because they simply keep forgetting to setup correctly, or do you label him "cheater" and out he goes? How many such offenses would it take? What about new players?

The reason I say you would be "stupid" not to try is simply because there is NO drawback, NO official rule for being caught cheating in this way (intentional or not). The rules do NOT indicate this is IP...go read them.

What should the OFFICIAL rule be? As stated, in our League, we award the calling Coach a free Team RR, AND the offending Coach MUST remedy his setup. However, if you DON'T catch it before the first turn starts, you are simply out of luck and the "cheater" gets away with it...learn to check your opponents setup already!

Trust me, I hate cheaters as much as anyone here (or anywhere), but without an official rule, this is an issue that MUST be dealt with via House Rule because as is, there is ZERO reason NOT to try and get away with each and every setup...it is simply part of the game. That needs to be addressed. Heck, even something along the lines of "You should House Rule what happens if someone sets up incorrectly in order to discourage cheating" would be better than not addressing it at ALL.

This is an issue that cannot be dealt with by simply saying "don't cheat" or "we'll kick you out if you don't play fairly." Likewise, it is not convincing to use "spirit of the game" in this argument, because a case for why you should ALWAYS cheat can be made using that logic. The primary reason is because this situation occurs *unintentionally* every so often, and there needs to be a rule that CLEARY dictates why you MUST pay attention to these things. A person who hibitually is called for cheating by this (or other) means will be exposed easily enough as it is. A rule needs to be made and enforced because <drunk> people simply forget sometimes, etc. Just as not turning the Turn Marker IS cheating, there is a RULE for it; why there is no mention of a rule for something that is 10 times WORSE than not turning the Turn Marker TRULY baffles me.

Again, I am NOT advocating cheating, but the LRB IS simply by not addressing this in any way, shape, or form. If this issue is one of "common sense," then why isn't there any rule at *all*? If it is SO obvious that SOMETHING must be done, as you have ALL so candidly pointed out, doesn't it seem smart to make an OFFICIAL rule, even if you House Rule a new one you like better? By not addressing it at ALL, too much room is left for exploitation. Also, I assume you are all *experienced* players...what about new players?

The fact that you are getting so bent out of shape truly makes my point for me. I HATE cheaters...why leave ANY room for them to exploit? Exactly.

Similarly, there's no rules for trying to move players more than their MA +gfis..no rules for trying to get away with 2D Blocks when it should be one....no rules for realising that the player you used the Catch skill to score that TD was in fact the wrong player. There's myriad comparisons.

I think I can see what you're getting at though, deliberate attempts to cheat aside.
At one point at Res. I believe Chet found himself with 12 players on the field, both players had missed it. I think (I'm sure Chet will correct me if I'm wrong) they decided to randomise a player and take him off there and then. And if it happened to be a key player over a lineman, then tough. I'd advise going with that as a house rule.

Xynok wrote:What happens if you DON'T spot it before the Kick-Off...is it simply "tough luck?" What happens if it was unintentional? Do you "boot" someone from the League because they simply keep forgetting to setup correctly, or do you label him "cheater" and out he goes? How many such offenses would it take? What about new players?

What do you do to coaches who forget to make their dodge rolls? The answer is the same. You go back and make them do it, or reach some acceptable compromise.

If someone deliberately sets up too many players then they are cheating, pure and simple.

Accidents happen though - just house rule it - we've made it an IP and in the case of excess your opponent removes the excess player(s).

GW wont put a rule in because they want to avoid bloating the rules with technicalities.

Ian