Fanatics and Apothecaries

[nazgob]

Coming back in the car yesterday with Glowworm and Buggrit, we came up with a question that we couldn't agree on.

If a ball and chain player is knocked over, his armour is automatically broken. Any stunned results are then treated as a knock out.

The question was this: can an apothecary be used to keep a fanatic on the pitch to (negating the knock out).

[Don__Vito]

Good question. Not got a rulebook at work so can't help, but would be interested in the answer.

[Grumbledook]

clearly the rules are there to indicate that a fanatic who falls over leaves the pitch

there is nothing in the apothecary rules to suggest you can't use it on a KO for a fanatic

combing the two I would rule if I was commish that you could use the apothecary to turn it into a stunned, but they fanatic goes back to the reserves rather than the pitch

from what I can make out though, there is no clear cut answer, maybe someone else can point something out

[Darkson]

And getting back to the topic at hand, I guess that was missed somewhat when the Apo was changed back to being allowed to be used on KOs.
Personally, I'd houserule what Grum said - into reserves (so a waste unless you have a Bribe handy or Get the Ref).

[nazgob]

Thanks for the responses guys (even you grumbledook).

So the consensus would seem to disagree with me, and agree with Buggrit and Glowworm - that the apothecary will not keep the fanatic on the pitch.

My reading of the rules was:

Step 1) Fanatic goes down
Step 2) Fanatic is stuned/Knocked out
Step 3) Stunned result turned into Knock Out
Step 4) Apothecary turns Knock Out into Stun

Of course, this is actually academic. Because if you then foul the stunned fanatic and get the stunned result, he will automatically get knocked out due to ball and chain (extraordinary skill).

***

As a side note, you can use the apothecary to wake someone up from the KO box. when do you do this? before or after KO rolls?

[Darkson]

Apoth on a KO leaves the player on the pitch Stunned.
B&C count all Stunned injury results as a KO.
Stunned (even by a Apo cure) is a injury result.

So I change my agreement with Grum - if you use your Apo to cure a KO on the B&C, he's placed back on the pitch Stunned, which means he's then removed to the KO box. So the only thing it achieves is wasting your Apo.

[nazgob]

Stunned is an injury result, but is it in this instance?

What I mean is, is an injury result only and injury result when you have to roll on the table?

[plasmoid]

As a side note, you can use the apothecary to wake someone up from the KO box. when do you do this? before or after KO rolls?

Uhm, no you can't. AFAIK.

[nazgob]

i'll admit that i was surprised when it was mentioned in the car yesterday.

need to look at the crp before i ask stupid questions i guess.

[Darkson]

As a side note, you can use the apothecary to wake someone up from the KO box. when do you do this? before or after KO rolls?

Uhm, no you can't. AFAIK.

Are you sure?

During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player
who has suffered a Casualty or been KO"d. An Apothecary can
be used only once per match. If the player was KO"d leave him
on the pitch Stunned, or, if he was not on the pitch, put him in the
Reserves box.

Tbh, there's nothing there now that says it has to be done immediately the KO (or Cas!) happens (unless it's in a different section now?).

[plasmoid]

My thinking is that "not on the pitch" refers to someone who was surfed.

My take my cue from the fact that it's the same wording for casualties. So if it has changed for KOs, then you can also cure a death 5 turns after the fact. That's a pretty big rules change.
I suspect that the CRaP edit removed something expressing the urgency.

Cheers
Martin

[Oxynot]

CRP is still pretty clear to me, concerning casualties. Emphasis mine:

During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player
who has suffered a Casualty or been KO’d. An Apothecary can
be used only once per match. If the player was KO’d leave him
on the pitch Stunned, or, if he was not on the pitch, put him in the
Reserves box. Otherwise immediately after the player suffers the
Casualty, you can use the Apothecary to make your opponent
roll again on the Casualty table...

And if you consider what Plasmoid said about the first part taking into account a surf, it seems clear cut to me. You can make an argument the other way as well, but at least at the moment, it smells like heavy-duty rules-lawyering.

[alternat]

heavy-duty rules-lawyering.

that's what GW does best, after all.

[Grumbledook]

IIRC in lrb4 you had to use the apothecary right away, like you do now for when a casualty occurs

the confusion has come with the introduction of allowing use on a KO and I agree it isn't clear if you can use it later to get a player from the KO box into the reserves at the end of a drive rather than straight away when the KO happens

[Darkson]

You can make an argument the other way as well, but at least at the moment, it smells like heavy-duty rules-lawyering.

Hey, don't look at me - we've always played the apo "immediately" - it was only the question here that even made me look again at the wording!