leaving a square

[uuni]

Could someone list of the occasions when a player leaves a square?

Apparently at least dodgeing out of a square is leaving the same square, but are all things when a player is removed from a square leaves from the square?

I'm considering the reaches of the Shadowing skill and considering some things.

For example, is the use of Diving Tackle leaving the Diving Tacklers original square? How about getting knocked out?

If this has been answered already, I'm very grateful if somebody provides a link to the answers for me. I could not find a suitable answer with very minor searching.

Thank you for your help in advance!

[KidStealth]

For example, is the use of Diving Tackle leaving the Diving Tacklers original square? How about getting knocked out?

afaik a player does not "leave" his square while doin' a diving tackle.

[Grumbledook]

if you go from one square to another square, then you leave the original square

getting KO you don't move into another square so doesn't count

shadowing can only be used when a player on the opposing team is performing an action, diving tackle isn't an action so shadowing can't be used

[uuni]

if you go from one square to another square, then you leave the original square

diving tackle you stay in the same square, getting KO you don't move into another square so doesn't count

In the Diving Tackle skill use, the dtackler is placed prone to the square the other player dodged from, which is differt than the square where the dtackler was standing. So you do not stay in the same square, but is this "placed prone" a "leave"?

[Oxynot]

In my opinion Shadwoing can't be used as the first sentence of its description says:

The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the
opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.

And using Diving Tackle is not an action (which include Move, Block, etc.). Thus Shadowing does not work against Pass Block either. Or some strange combination like having Frenzy and an Fend opponent

All in all, the wording in Shadowing suggests it can only be used during the opponents turn.

[uuni]

In my opinion Shadwoing can't be used as the first sentence of its description says:

The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the
opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.

And using Diving Tackle is not an action (which include Move, Block, etc.). Thus Shadowing does not work against Pass Block either. Or some strange combination like having Frenzy and an Fend opponent

All in all, the wording in Shadowing suggests it can only be used during the opponents turn.

Yes, I know that it is quite rare instance.

My main question is, what are the situations that player leaves a square?

Example of potential Shadowing of Diving Tackler, if Diving Tackle is a leave:
1) Thrower A has Diving Tackle skill.
2) Enemy B has Pass Block skill.
3) Enemy C has Shadowing skill
4) A declares a Pass Action
5) A tries to make a throw from a square next to B and C.
6) We go to pass sequence.
7) B declares to use Pass Block skill to move to intercept the pass.
8.) B tries to dodge out of a tackle zone of A.
9) A uses Diving Tackle to stop B. A is still the player performing an Action.
10) C uses Shadowing skill to move to the square vacated by A.

This all requires, that Diving Tackle placing prone to other square is leaving a square.

This is why I am not asking when Shadowing works, I am asking, when a player leaves a square.

[Grumbledook]

edited my earlier post due to incorrect info

regarding a passer trying to diving tackle a passblocker, I can't see why you would ever do that as you then drop the ball and cause a turnover for your own team

is a team mate is doing the diving tackle then they aren't performing an action so shadowing can't be used

why the thrower would move into a square with two tackle zones as well unless they have nerves of steel is beyond me

I can't see why they would then also have diving tackle. Even with nerves of steel they have then put themselves in a situation where they can easily be blocked next turn (unless they score from the pass). They would also be more likely to just mark the passblocker forcing them to dodge and stay out of the TZ of the shadowing player (to prevent the easy block). If this isn't possible due to positioning of other players on the pitch then there would be a better square to be in more often than not either marking different opposing players or just blocking a running lane.

If this whole quite rather unlikely scenario does crop up (like perhaps you are picking skill increases randomly and playing someone who tactically seems to not know what they are doing) then yes diving tackle would count as leaving their square and they were performing an action, so you could use shadowing

Though as I outlined above, I can't see how any of this would be possible and even if it was I don't see why the thrower would use diving tackle.

[Oxynot]

In that example, as rare it is, Shadowing could be used, as I see it. It satisfies both conditions set by Shadowing:

a. player A is performing an Action
b. player A is leaving a square adjacent to Shadowing player C

Someone might have a better argument against using diving tackle = leaving square, but until then I'd rule it this way.

I agree with Grumbledook, that it is hard to think of a situation that turns up more than once in a blue moon where this becomes relevant though.

[uuni]

Yes, my question was, what is leaving a square. So I am getting a feeling, that leaving a square in this context refers to changing the square of the player to another square. This rules out at least going to dug-out off-board. So leaving a square is not at least getting sent off for fouling and failing a go for it in blitz while attempting to throw the block. All these things remove the player from its current square without a "leaving of the square" occuring. These moves do not move the player alongside of the pitch but off the pitch.

I find this topic to be of my interest because I have recently run into an argument that moving by blocking another player is not leaving of a square. So I try to find the essence of this concept of "leaving a square".

I pardon the rules-lawyer-speak of my posts in this matter. It is not my intention to bend or change the rules, but to find their intention in this matter.

***

Regarding the previous example, I am not so sure of how the ball should behave after step 10. Technically we are in the middle of the passing sequence and the passing range has been measured. There is no specified way to interrupt the passing sequence at this point, so it could appear that the interceptor gets to try the intercept and the pass gets possibly tried (although without any skills that do not work while prone).

There would be a turnover if the pass would fail but if the passing sequence would complete with the ball in the hands of the catcher, it should be possible to avoid the turnover. I admit, that I am not sure if the ball should bounce from the square of the throw or the square of the prone thrower in case of natural fumble. In case of Safe Throw it should bounce from the square of the now prone thrower.

But should this second question be made another topic independantly of this topic?

[uuni]

Hmm... When reading the rules once again, I think I have found an answer to myself regarding to the question if Diving Tackle is leaving:
LRB6 FAQ, p 61:

Q: Players under influence of Bone-head, Really Stupid, or Hypnotic
Gaze cannot use skills that allow them to move voluntarily. Which skills
are not allowed to be used as they are considered moving voluntarily?
A: Skills that allow you to leave your square without being forced to
leave your square in the first place. These skills are Diving Tackle, Pass
Block, and Shadowing.

So this seems to imply that Diving Tackle is considered leaving a square.

[Oxynot]

Ok, now I understand a bit better where you're coming from with this question. The question can't be answered incontestably with what is written in the rulebook, or so I think.

But what I think it means is that Shadowing can be used when targeted player performing an action leaves the square voluntarily.

That'd let it be used when dodging, leaping (only the one square mind you), when following up a block with or without frenzy(contradicting what I earlier said), the diving tackle example you presented and probably some more. But it'd dismiss being ejected for fouling or leaving the pitch due to injury.

But as said, it is only my interpretation on the rules.


Oh, one more thing, noticed a thing that brushes this in the FAQ in the rulebook.

Q: Players under influence of Bone-head, Really Stupid, or Hypnotic Gaze
cannot use skills that allow them to move voluntarily. Which skills are not
allowed to be used as they are considered moving voluntarily?
A: Skills that allow you to leave your square without being forced to leave your
square in the first place: Diving Tackle, Pass Block, and Shadowing.

Nothing really decisive, but it feels like it is related in spirit

edit: beat me to it, you did

[Grumbledook]

yes diving tackle is leaving a square, I only said otherwise as I remembered it wrong and thought you went prone in your own square

so what you really want to know is if you can use shadowing when a player blocks and follows up out of the tacklezone of a shadowing player

if you had just asked that we could have replied saying yes, there is even another thread that asks that already iirc ;]

they are performing an action and going from one square to another, thus fulfilling the leaving criteria

sometimes it is easier to just come out and ask the actual question and you would have got your answer in the third post ;]

my second post in the thread cleared up the diving tackle situation if you read through it again

hope that clears it up for you though

[Ullis]

Regarding the previous example, I am not so sure of how the ball should behave after step 10. Technically we are in the middle of the passing sequence and the passing range has been measured. There is no specified way to interrupt the passing sequence at this point, so it could appear that the interceptor gets to try the intercept and the pass gets possibly tried (although without any skills that do not work while prone).

It's a turnover if a player from the active team is placed prone while holding the ball (see rules for when turnovers occur). So no passing and I guess the Pass blocker doesn't get to move his possible remaining steps either. No interceptions either since Pass Block is worked out before interceptions.

[Koigokoro]

Regarding the previous example, I am not so sure of how the ball should behave after step 10. Technically we are in the middle of the passing sequence and the passing range has been measured. There is no specified way to interrupt the passing sequence at this point, so it could appear that the interceptor gets to try the intercept and the pass gets possibly tried (although without any skills that do not work while prone).

It's a turnover if a player from the active team is placed prone while holding the ball (see rules for when turnovers occur). So no passing and I guess the Pass blocker doesn't get to move his possible remaining steps either. No interceptions either since Pass Block is worked out before interceptions.

I suppose the turnover would happen before the use of Shadowing in this case.

Edit: Hmm, well you can fail a dodge too and still get Shadowed, so my upper point is kinda void or something..

[uuni]

Regarding the previous example, I am not so sure of how the ball should behave after step 10. Technically we are in the middle of the passing sequence and the passing range has been measured. There is no specified way to interrupt the passing sequence at this point, so it could appear that the interceptor gets to try the intercept and the pass gets possibly tried (although without any skills that do not work while prone).

It's a turnover if a player from the active team is placed prone while holding the ball (see rules for when turnovers occur). So no passing and I guess the Pass blocker doesn't get to move his possible remaining steps either. No interceptions either since Pass Block is worked out before interceptions.

I concur with Ullis on this fully, except that I can not find "the player with the ball is Placed Prone or Knocked Down" in the list of turnovers in the page 7. Also common sense says that there should be a throw in order for someone to intercept it, but I have read that you should not try to use common sense with interceptions too much. We must note that the range has already been measured, one could say that the range ruler is on the table.

If someone can explain the proceedings of the mentioned situation, perhaps with references to the rules, I appreciate it!