Skill use always after rerolling?

[uuni]

Hi! I had an argument with my friend over Dodge and Diving Tackle.

Regarding the LRB p 14 of rerolling, I have come to the conclusion that sequence would be like this:
1) Dice rolled
2) Team reroll used / Active player skill reroll. Active player announces the skills affecting the roll
3) Passive player announces the skills affecting the roll
4) Roll resolved.

So when elf A with Dodge would try to dodge out to clear from goblin B with Diving Tackle, following could happen:
1) A rolls dodgeroll, result 2
2) A figures there could be DT, so rerolls with Dodge, result 5
3) B does not use DT
or
1) A rolls dodgeroll, result 2
2) A misfigures there would not be DT, so does not use Dodge
3) B uses DT and the dodge attempt is foiled.

I have been shown these two conversations: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=31485&p=558568&hil ... le#p558568 and viewtopic.php?f=10&t=31395&p=557673&hil ... le#p557673. Both of them seem to assume that B would announce the use of Diving Tackle somehow before A announces the use of Dodge. While this is permissible in the rules, I have thought my way because of rules saying (LRB6, p14) "you can choose to use a skill that affects a dice roll after rolling the dice." and "If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first."

Can someone clarify if and how I was wrong?

Thank you in advance!

[Darkson]

The Dodge skill reroll is only used if the dodge fails:

and is allowed to re-roll the D6 if he fails to dodge out of any of an opposing player"s tackle zones

In your example above (I'm assuming you meant the elf isn't dodging into a TZ) then the dodge is successful, unless the goblin coach decides to use DT. Once the goblin decides to use DT, then the dodge if failed, and the Dodge skill can be used.
Catch and sure Hands are the same - they can only be used if the relevant catch or pick-up is failed.

[uuni]

Ok, thanks. So how about the piece "coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first"? How can he then choose to use his skills after the not-moving coach has chosen his skills? Can the not-moving coach wait for the moving coach to choose his skill use first?

[Darkson]

Not in the example you used, because the moving coach cannot elect to use his skill before the non-moving coach, because unless the non-moving coach uses his skill, the action hasn't failed.

The bit about "coach whose turn it is" comes into play with things like Block, Wrestle, Tackle, Juggernaut etc.

My Wrestle lineman hits your Side Step Catcher for 2 dice, push and both down - I have to dice a) which dice I'm choosing and b) if I'm using any skills before you decide if you want to Side Step or not.

[Greyhound]

The Dodge skill reroll is only used if the dodge fails:

and is allowed to re-roll the D6 if he fails to dodge out of any of an opposing player"s tackle zones

In your example above (I'm assuming you meant the elf isn't dodging into a TZ) then the dodge is successful, unless the goblin coach decides to use DT. Once the goblin decides to use DT, then the dodge if failed, and the Dodge skill can be used.
Catch and sure Hands are the same - they can only be used if the relevant catch or pick-up is failed.

interestingly the team reroll can be done on failed or successful rolls.

[Insane_Prophet]

interestingly the team reroll can be done on failed or successful rolls.

Or at least, rolls that haven't caused a turnover. I'm guessing this is primarily so that blocks can be rerolled.

[Greyhound]

apparently there is scenario in theory-blood bowl where you'd want to fail a dodge to occupy the square...

[Darkson]

apparently there is scenario in theory-blood bowl where you'd want to fail a dodge to occupy the square...

No theorybowl - use a TRR to reoll a successful catch by the Blitzer that hit the ball carrier in the cage.
6... reroll...6 - d'oh!

[uuni]

My Wrestle lineman hits your Side Step Catcher for 2 dice, push and both down - I have to dice a) which dice I'm choosing and b) if I'm using any skills before you decide if you want to Side Step or not.

Ok, so regarding your block example and previous Dodge/DT -thing: In your example, after you selecting the Pushback-result and now that I have decided that I use my Side Step, can you now decide to use your Team Reroll or the players Pro-skill to reroll the result as you don't get the result you are hoping? To me, that seems to be the situation with the dodge example: I decide to use my Diving Tackle, so now that you are unhappy with the roll, you decide to use your Dodge.

Is it really like this?

[Darkson]

As I said above, you can only use Dodge on a failed dodge result, so you can't "use" Dodge until your opponent uses DT, otherwise the Dodge isn't failed.

For the Block example - no - I've elected to use the Push result, so the Block stands.

Let's break it down into sequence.
Dodge Elf dodging into the open, from a player with DT.

1. Elf dodges, and rolls a 3 - a succesful dodge. At this point I cannot use the Dodge skill, as the dodge was not failed. I could use a TRR if I wanted.
2. You decide whether to use DT or not:
a) if you don't, the dodge is successful, and the elf moves away - stop here.
b) if you do, the dodge has now failed - at this point, I can now use the Dodge skill, as it's a failed dodge.
3. If you use DT, I now reroll the dodge with the -2 to the roll, so need a 4+ to get away.

[uuni]

As I said above, you can only use Dodge on a failed dodge result, so you can't "use" Dodge until your opponent uses DT, otherwise the Dodge isn't failed.

For the Block example - no - I've elected to use the Push result, so the Block stands.

Let's break it down into sequence.
Dodge Elf dodging into the open, from a player with DT.

1. Elf dodges, and rolls a 3 - a succesful dodge. At this point I cannot use the Dodge skill, as the dodge was not failed. I could use a TRR if I wanted.
2. You decide whether to use DT or not:
a) if you don't, the dodge is successful, and the elf moves away - stop here.
b) if you do, the dodge has now failed - at this point, I can now use the Dodge skill, as it's a failed dodge.
3. If you use DT, I now reroll the dodge with the -2 to the roll, so need a 4+ to get away.

Ok. Could you make a similar orderchart of the throw-a-block case, please? Also, in the dodge-chart, because you could elect to use your team-RR in the point 1, if I now choose to use DT in later point, are you prevented from using team-RR as per the rule "moving team chooses usage first" or not?

My problem of not understanding this still revolves somewhere around the vision, that the moving player can use Dodge skill in response to non-moving skill use but apparently team-RR or Pro skill could not be used in response of Wrestle, Side Step or Stand Firm skill use. Or any skill can be used in response to any other skill, which kind of seems to render the "moving team chooses usage first" principle quite moot. I am grateful if I can get a better picture of this area of rules.

[Greyhound]

Ok. Could you make a similar orderchart of the throw-a-block case, please? Also, in the dodge-chart, because you could elect to use your team-RR in the point 1, if I now choose to use DT in later point, are you prevented from using team-RR as per the rule "moving team chooses usage first" or not?

My problem of not understanding this still revolves somewhere around the vision, that the moving player can use Dodge skill in response to non-moving skill use but apparently team-RR or Pro skill could not be used in response of Wrestle, Side Step or Stand Firm skill use. Or any skill can be used in response to any other skill, which kind of seems to render the "moving team chooses usage first" principle quite moot. I am grateful if I can get a better picture of this area of rules.

Ok here's my attempt

1. You throw a 2 dice block, allowing you to pick which dice you prefer.
2. You roll the dice, and pick the push die. This essentially finishes the action of rolling dice, and gives you the outcome: push.

- at this stage the Roll for the act of blocking is done. You can reroll it using Pro, or a TRR, but no skill affect the roll. There is no interaction like with DT, where the skill affect the result of the die. -

3. Your opponent decides to use Side Step.
You can't decide to reroll now, the outcome was already sealed.

-----------
There is a case of a skill affecting the block dice: Juggernaut.
1. You declare a blitz
2. You move
3. You throw a block - 2 dice
4. You get 2 both down, you pick one of them
Your opponent has Wrestle, so you need to decide whether you want to use your jug skill or not.
a) you decide not to use the skill, the both down stands.
b) you decide to use Jug the result is now a push.
You need to decide first because as far as your opponent is concerned the roll is not completed until we know the outcome.
Once you picked your result your opponent gets to choose his skills:
a) he can decide to use his wrestle skill
b) he can't use wrestle the skill has been denied by jug.

Essentially you have to think about the dice roll as a "process" which has to have a result, either a number on a d6, or a blocking result in a block dice.
Once you decided the outcome, pick the skills you want to use at your leisure.

[Oxynot]

Also, in the dodge-chart, because you could elect to use your team-RR in the point 1, if I now choose to use DT in later point, are you prevented from using team-RR as per the rule "moving team chooses usage first" or not?

For a very short second there, I thought my Diving Tackle snotlings just got better, but you answer yourself in your first post when quoting the rules (bolding mine):

While this is permissible in the rules, I have thought my way because of rules saying (LRB6, p14) "you can choose to use a skill that affects a dice roll after rolling the dice." and "If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first."

Since a team re-roll is not skill, it does not follow this rules passage.

[Xeterog]

Ok. Could you make a similar orderchart of the throw-a-block case, please? Also, in the dodge-chart, because you could elect to use your team-RR in the point 1, if I now choose to use DT in later point, are you prevented from using team-RR as per the rule "moving team chooses usage first" or not?

If you choose to use a TRR in step one, you immediately re-roll the dodge roll..and you've now used your TRR for the turn and can't use Dodge to re-roll the same dodge this turn, so DT isn't what limits you from using a Team-RR later in the resolution.

[Gimli]

Ok, thanks. So how about the piece "coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first"? How can he then choose to use his skills after the not-moving coach has chosen his skills? Can the not-moving coach wait for the moving coach to choose his skill use first?

I posted on a very similar point about a year and half ago. My point then was that if a player decided to reroll the dodge after I declared DT, then I was put back to where I was before the first roll; i.e., standing up. I lost the debate. But in the course of it this very point about the moving coach using his skill first came up. The consensus, from the most senior of commentators, was that this rule was a mistaken holdover from LRB3 or 4. Rather, DT has to declare first, then skill use and or use of TRR by the moving coach.