What is a Big Guy?

[JPS]

Is there a specific definition of what constitutes a "Big Guy" in LRB 6.0?

We run a "Pro Bowl" or All-Star game in our league, with one or two players from each team selected to one of the two Pro Bowl teams. Despite the different races, the Pro Bowl Teams must use the roster limits of a human team with 0-1 "Big Guys" instead of 0-1 Ogres. (Each team can also have 0-1 Secret Weapon players.) For races that have positions that don't match up to the human position names, these positions are assigned an equivalent for the Pro Bowl. In other words, a Skaven Gutter Runner counts as a receiver, a Dwarf Runner as a Thrower, a Black Orc Blocker as a Blitzer, etc.

Most players are assigned relatively easily (Access to Passing skills? Counts as a thrower! etc). But we had an argument over Tomb Guardians.

Because 0-4 Tomb Guardians can be taken by a Khemri team, they have normal access to General Skills (I think), don't have a nega-trait (that has to be rolled every turn), and because I had never seen them defined anywhere as "Big Guys," I ruled that they were Blitzers. One of the other players argued that they should count as Big Guys because they start at ST 5 and Decay is a negatrait even though it is only rolled on Casualties.

Is there anywhere that clarifies what a Big Guy is or is not? Or is "Big Guy" no longer a defined term in the rules?

- JPS

[Ulthuan_Express]

The 0-1 Players with Nega-traits are generally the Big Guys, who come on larger bases. Mummies and Tomb Guardians, despite being awesome, tend not to be classed as Big Guys.

And, how come you denoted Black Orcs as Blitzers, when Orcs have... Blitzers? I think you need a 'Blocker' position, which would encompass all of Mummies, Tomb Guardians, Flesh Golems, Black Orcs, etc.

[Grumbledook]

No

just a term carried on from previous versions of the rules, they all have Loner now intead to save having two rules the same for different types of players

it was the ST5 players on teams that were not mummies

though iirc ogres on ogre teams didn't have it? <-- this could be wrong

it was to stop them using rerolls

human teams don't have a receiver position either fwiw ;]

[Ulthuan_Express]

No

just a term carried on from previous versions of the rules, they all have Loner now intead to save having two rules the same for different types of players

'Cept Halfling Treemen, who don't have Loner.

[JPS]

Thanks for the quick replies!

@ Ulthuan-express: I pretty much defined Big Guys the same as you were describing and intend to continue to do so. Regarding the "Blitzer" position, both Black Orcs and Orc Blitzers were considered Blitzers for the Pro Bowl and the Orc team does not provide Catchers. Other teams like Dwarves and Khemri provide multiples of one position and none for another - it forces some limitations and therefore strategic decisions while still keeping things both simple and flexible.

@Grumbledook: That's what I thought. And nice, um, catch on "receiver."

- JPS

[duckwing]

Thanks for the quick replies!

@ Ulthuan-express: I pretty much defined Big Guys the same as you were describing and intend to continue to do so. Regarding the "Blitzer" position, both Black Orcs and Orc Blitzers were considered Blitzers for the Pro Bowl and the Orc team does not provide Catchers. Other teams like Dwarves and Khemri provide multiples of one position and none for another - it forces some limitations and therefore strategic decisions while still keeping things both simple and flexible.

@Grumbledook: That's what I thought. And nice, um, catch on "receiver."

- JPS

I would have counted the goblins on the orc team as catchers.

[JPS]

Since Goblins on a Goblin team are 0-16 positionals, I made them linemen for the Pro Bowl, regardless of what team they came from. The same argument holds for the Dark Elf Linemen on the Chaos Pact team, and possibly a few others.

But, yes, Goblins could be considered an Orc team's receivers.

-JPS

[Milo]

Black Orc Blockers REALLY are Blockers. At least in concept, most teams have four of the five basic player archetypes: Lineman, Blocker, Blitzer, Thrower, Catcher. The dichotomy between the Orcs and the Humans, as presented in the Blood Bowl box set, is that the Humans give up Blocker and the Orcs give up Catcher.

JPS, what led you to classify BOBs as Blitzers?

[dsavillian]

/slightly off topic

I'm very interested to see how this all-star game works out. Can you post a mini-report when it's all done?

[JPS]

@ Milo: I didn't realize that "Blocker" was a seperate category from "Blitzer." The initial All-Star game concept was not mine and the commissioner at the time simply used the Human roster as the basis for the Pro-Bowl rosters. I followed suit. But now that you've pointed out the distinction between the two, I may push my league to incorporate the concept in future Pro Bowls.

I have an excel sheet with a breakdown of what each player was considered. If some one could tell me how best to attach it or if I should just retype it (it'll be kinda long), I'll post it.

@ dsavillian: We've now played two Pro Bowls, both of which have gone well. One of the big concepts of these Pro Bowls is that depite there being a Head Coach for each team, the individual players are controlled by thier individual coaches and players must perform actions in roster order (like a batting order in baseball). In addition, SPP's are worth double, but some SPP's are awarded for winning the game as well. This way individual coaches should be torn between working with the team or playing for themselves. The idea is that instead of having an "Animosity" skill, we have actual animosity!

The first Pro Bowl was played when there were twenty coaches/teams in the league and used regular Blood Bowl rules more or less. Coaches generally put winning above gaining SPP's for their individual players, but with the score 2-0 the Khemri coach on my team decided that he wanted to blitz his ST 6 Tomb guardian every turn to get more CAS SPP's - even when it meant dodging into tackle zones! The TG was 6th in the "batting order" and we had a minotaur last in the order. I spent most of the second half begging and pleading with the Khemri coach to not use the Blitz Action so I could move the Minotaur (or simply get to later players in the order). If I couldn't get him to agree, then I had to find ways to use the Blitz action with one of the first five players so the TG couldn't cause a turnover by making a stupid (or at least selfish) die roll. But the arguing and cajoling (and the opposing coaches yelling "Play for yourself!) was a big part of the fun.

The second Pro Bowl was played with only 12 Coaches/teams in the league and used Street Bowl rules. Coaches were more cooperative than in the first game and both teams played with substantially more coordination than in the first Pro Bowl (which may also have something to do with the coaches in the league having gotten better since the first Pro Bowl). Plus the game stayed close the whole time. Also very exciting, a lot of yelling back and forth, "Think for yourself! Don't listen to him! So what if he's your head coach!" being shouted frequently at the opposition. The game ended in a 3-3 tie with only two casualties, both of whom came back via potion or for the next game. (Yes, injuries carry over into the regular season!)

We still need to work out some of the kinks. The batting order thing still needs some work. I'm considering having each coach roll initiative for their player each turn instead. Also, players from teams whose coaches don't show have been controlled by the Head Coach which may give too much control of a team to one person, so maybe we'll have those players controlled by other coaches.

The biggest part of the enjoyment is getting all (or most) of the coaches in the league together to play one game where it's not just one coach versus one coach, but a bunch of coaches trying to work together (or be selfish) against a bunch of other coaches.

And I've clearly rambled on for way too long.

- JPS

[Milo]

@ Milo: I didn't realize that "Blocker" was a seperate category from "Blitzer." The initial All-Star game concept was not mine and the commissioner at the time simply used the Human roster as the basis for the Pro-Bowl rosters. I followed suit. But now that you've pointed out the distinction between the two, I may push my league to incorporate the concept in future Pro Bowls.

Back in second edition, nearly every race had all five positions, and the positions were highlighted by colored rings that fit around the bases (Red = Blitzer, Yellow = Catcher, White = Thrower, Green = Blocker, Gray = Lineman). One of the innovations of 3rd edition, I think, is they distinguished between teams better by limiting the positions each had available.

Each position can be fairly well distinguished. Throwers, naturally, have access to throwing skills and generally start with one or two. Blitzers usually have the Block skill and always have more than average movement for the race (which is the primary factor excluding BOBs from this category.) Blockers have above average strength (usually) and below average movement. Catchers are faster, have agility skills, and sometimes lower ST.

Arguably, Dwarf teams lack the lineman position and just have blitzer, blocker and thrower. (Plus Troll Slayers, they're a "special" class.)

[Darkson]

Blitzers usually have the Block skill and always have more than average movement for the race

*cough* Amazons *cough*

[Milo]

The exception that proves the rule? No, I honestly forgot about Amazons. Change that always to "usually". Regardless, the Amazon Blitzer does have block, so it still fits the second half of the rule.

[spubbbba]

The exception that proves the rule? No, I honestly forgot about Amazons. Change that always to "usually". Regardless, the Amazon Blitzer does have block, so it still fits the second half of the rule.

Don't forget norse, their linemen start with block and have the same MA.

Their Blitzers (berserkers) gain other skills instead.
If you count Ulfwereners as blockers and Runners as catchers does that mean Norse are the only team to have all 5 of the classic positions?

[duckwing]

I don't think runners fit in to the classic positionals. Bot the dark elf and the norse runners are a positional of their own.