Why do I roll Armor/Injury after my turn has ended?

[daloonieshaman]

According to the various events that happen over the course of the game things happen at a different time.

What happens before the End of your Turn:
Pass - HandOff - Fumble resolve the bounce, on a fumble if it also lands in one of your players hands it is still a turnover

What happens After the End of Your Turn: (but before your opponents turn starts): ???huh???
Your turn Ends Immediately then this stuff happens making it after the end of your turn

Ball Bounces if:
you foul and have the ball
you GFI and have the ball and trip
you fail a dodge and are holding the ball
you fail to pick up the ball
you knock yourself down or make yourself prone while holding the ball (say your opponent has wrestle and you do not have block to use on both down)

Armor and injury
Knocked down (block dice, gfi, dodge)

Roll your stunned players

Wizard
some Cards

and then the opposing coach may start his turn

Please read the various sections and understand what the word immediately means

[Xeterog]

you are not correct here. I'll leave it to others to argue...but in short, you turn does not end until your opponent moves his turn marker. The ball must come to rest before your turn ends (failed pick up, failed catch, knocked down player, whatever), Armor/injury rolls must be made before your turn ends.. etc. You are not interpeting the 'immediately' in the failed pick up rules correctly.

Cards and wizards create an Exception to the rules, where right before your opponent moves his turn marker, but after your turn ends, something happens.

But, that is all I have to say on it, as this argument has made me scream at the screen several times already, as the argument rubs me the wrong way.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree strongly with it.

[trentusdementus]

I believe rolling your stunned players is the only thing that happens after your turn ends but before your opponents turn begins.

Most of those situations involve resolving actions at the end of your turn rather than after the end of it.

[Greyhound]

you are not correct here. I'll leave it to others to argue...but in short, you turn does not end until your opponent moves his turn marker.

I think there will be a lot of debate here, so please can we "quote" the book, rather than make assumptions?
It's easy to miss a word when working from memory or just quoting a page:

You CAN start your turn without moving the turn marker, so the statement above does not hold:

MOVING THE TURN MARKER
Each coach is responsible for keeping track of how many turns
his team has used, and must move the Turn marker one space
along the track provided on his Dugout at the start of each and
every one of his turns. If he forgets to move the counter before
starting a play with one or more of his players, then the opposing
coach is allowed to call for an !illegal procedure" penalty as soon
as he spots the mistake. A play is considered to be moving a
player one or more squares, standing up a player or rolling the
dice during your turn.

So essentially although it is common practice to start your turn with the movement of the TM, and even strongly suggested by the sentence "at the start of each and every one of his turns". There is a term "play" introduced which seems to indicate that you can start a turn, before moving it.
If we consider that the turn starts after the TM has moved you could see a lot of abuse, like for instance:
- move your player, since it's allowed, before moving the marker.
- then move the marker and quote :"Each player in a team may perform one Action per turn." and move him again.
This is a downward spiral to a lot of abuse so please let's agree that the TM should be moved once the turn starts, but it isn't the condition for a turn to start, not for the previous one to end.

I normally say (or ask for my opponent): Ok all done it's your turn. Although it's not in the rule, I hope we can find somewhere a way to mark the end of turn, and therefore the start of the next one.

[daloonieshaman]

you are not correct here. I'll leave it to others to argue...but in short, you turn does not end until your opponent moves his turn marker. The ball must come to rest before your turn ends (failed pick up, failed catch, knocked down player, whatever), Armor/injury rolls must be made before your turn ends.. etc. You are not interpeting the 'immediately' in the failed pick up rules correctly.

Cards and wizards create an Exception to the rules, where right before your opponent moves his turn marker, but after your turn ends, something happens.

But, that is all I have to say on it, as this argument has made me scream at the screen several times already, as the argument rubs me the wrong way.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree strongly with it.

not my opinion.
It is a thought created from another thread that needed it's own platform for invoking in depth discussion to nail down some of the "it's this way or that way, or now, or later)

How people are use to playing because of tradition, house rule, misunderstanding may not be the same as the actual rules. Happens to everyone at some point. I had the hardest time with the changes with dumpoff, because we played it a different way for so long. eventually I came around. (I still get tripped up now and again)

Concept is also a big factor in difference of opinion.

Your concept is automatically "There is no way in the world this guy could be right"

All I ask is this:
Print out my statement (right or wrong it is just a statement to invoke thought)
Get your rulebook
Get a beverage and a comfy location with few distractions

Go one by one down the list of things
find what pages they are on
read the passages
refer to the rules of the end of your turn referred to as a turnover on pf 7
write your opinion of what happens when based on the wording of both the passage and the rules for a turnover and the end of the turn
When does the turn end?
What happened before the Turn Ends
What happens after the Turn Ends

All I ask, and I am not trying to change your opinion, is to refer to the individual sections and take a moment to re-read them.
(for speed I think they are pgs 7, 8, 12, 13, 15?, 20, 22 I may have missed one but it should be in the index)

Please when you discuss a point back it up with page # and if necessary a quote of the sentence you are referring to instead of taking a staunch approach of it is wrong because I said so.
Dig in and get dirty. Refer to points in the book. Whys or why nots.
Please be open to absorb others opinion and hear what they have to say. Think it over. They may actually right or they me be actually wrong. Also someone may agree with you but for different reasons. for everyone's understanding iron the points out.

This is the perfect time to clear up some of the gray area that has plagued almost every player that plays. It also helps define time points in the game that are affected buy some of the weirdest stuff.

[Darkson]

Agree 100% with Xetrog.

[Coach]

Xeterog +1

I believe even Galak confirmed in one of the other threads, it is merely an oversight in the wording of the rules due to highly unlikely event cropping up that no one had bought up before.

I remember the phrase "spirit of the rules" always being used a lot in White Dwarf back in the 90s when I used to get it.

[Greyhound]

That closes it (for me). I was interested in the discussion because it helped me set the rules and read through all the bits I never quiet understood or realised. If we all agree that the rules have some tiny cracks for extreme cases that's good enough for me.

Dali has done some diligent reading of the book mind you, we simply all decided a long time ago to house rule the extreme cases in something a bit simpler.
Common sense prevails but it was interested while it lasted. The community falls back on the spirit of the rules rather the words... Works for me.

[Greyhound]

I believe rolling your stunned players is the only thing that happens after your turn ends but before your opponents turn begins.

Most of those situations involve resolving actions at the end of your turn rather than after the end of it.

Oh BTW a coach argued with me once that since I didn't turn my stunned at the end of my last turn they couldn't get up this turn... Didn't like that bit at all and got my guy anyway. He accepted reluctantly.

[alternat]

may I?

page 7:

"The game is played using a simple but strict sequence of play, which runs as follows:
A. Receiving Team's Turn
B. Kicking Team's Turn
Repeat A abd B, one after the other, until the end of the drive."

There's no trace of "in between turns", only "turns". When one ends, the other one starts, and vice versa.

We all know that the whole rules were not written by a major court lawyer, but from a bunch of nerdy fans (me included).

my last two cents, 'cos all this discussion seems to me like sharpening s**t to run faster through the sewers.

[daloonieshaman]

my last two cents, 'cos all this discussion seems to me like sharpening s**t to run faster through the sewers.

ROFLMAF

So what is being implied as a lapse of the rules is:
In the spirit of the game
Your turned has ended for various reasons
You have some stuff to do but it is still part of your ended turn

In between turns (Which in fact does exist)
you do things like certain cards and the Wiz that say "after your turn ends but before your opponent's turn begins..."

when the dust settles it is the start of your opponents turn

[GalakStarscraper]

Agree 100% with Xetrog.

As do I

[Asperon Thorn]

Agree 100% with Xetrog.

As do I

And what it comes down to. . .is that it is a game, with rules. And games are only played if we agree on the rules. And a large number of people, including some with authority, all agree that it should be played one way. Regardless of what it says.

Mincing the wording at that point accomplishes nothing.

Asperon Thorn

[daloonieshaman]

In rereading the rules on page 7 a light came on
The end of your turn

Many things happen during the end of your turn
1) moved all your players you are done with your actions, roll the stunned players.
Your turn completed
If there is no between turn special events (Wiz and Cards)
opponents turn starts

2) You suffer a turnover from a list of 8 things (there are 2 delays) will proceed into the end of turn process
#3 Pass/Handoff resolve scatter (if not caught TO exist)
#6 Fumble scatter TO regardless of catch

Process end of turn
a) your player's ACTION ends immediately
b)Make you A/I rolls (if necessary)
c)scatter a dropped errant ball (pickup, trip, land, eat, vamp, block, foul)
d)roll stuns over
your Turn completed

if necessary Special between turn events (Wiz Cards)

Opponent's Turn begins

wait you don't process chit ...
Like any other event in Blood Bowl you process a ton of stuff during the course of that event

let's start simple
Move:
count squares
make necessary rolls for dodge/Leap ect
GFI
"face your player" (turn him out of the direction of your players so you both remember he has moved)

Block:
roll dice
choose result
process result of choice

• push
  down
  stay
  chain push
  push down
  followup
  Skill use

roll necessary armor/injury
remove necessary player (*before scattering the ball*)
scatter necessary ball (we all know sometimes this can take forever)

phew and that was just one block

try a stunty throw player for a td with GFI

see a ton of stuff happens in the course of that event
so even though your turn ends immediately you still have stuff to do during that process (listed exception of course #2 pass/handoff, #6 fumble)
So no, your stuff does not happen AFTER your turn ends but during the process of ending your turn

[trentusdementus]

In rereading the rules on page 7 a light came on...

...So no, your stuff does not happen AFTER your turn ends but during the process of ending your turn

correct.