Takebacks when choosing block dice

[Warpstone]

Your blitzer has the ball and hits someone. You roll 2 block dice for a push and both down result. You choose both down. Your opponent uses wrestle. Turnover.

What's the common practice here with choosing block dice in light of your opponent's skills? If you see the block results, pick both down and then your opponent informs you he has wrestle, is it okay to use the push result instead?

I know most of us don't really think of the above scenario in strict terms and usually the blitzer is allowed to use the push result instead. But what's common practice in regards to the above?

I want to justify giving the blitzing coach a chance to pick push instead, but just can't think of any rationale in response to a strict "no, he said both down so I can use wrestle" response. There's sportsmanship, but that's not a rule.

[Joemanji]

Proper order is that you must choose which dice you are selecting before your opponent decides which skills he is going to use.

Compare it to a more familiar situation. Does a player with Stand Firm have to say whether he using it before you choose your block dice?

[Xeterog]

Rosters are not private info. Your blitzer knows before throwing the block that the target has wrestle and should choose the result appropriately.

That said, I've always played that you could change the choice if someone 'surprises' you with a skill like that.

[dsavillian]

Generally speaking, I will tell my opponent what skills my player has before they choose a block die. If I don't, and they pick something that doesn't make sense given my player's skills, I will let them know about it and give them the chance to fix it (like "oh, forgot to mention I had dodge").

Wrestle, however, is a bit different. I will tell them I have wrestle, but sometimes I elect not to use it in order to cause a turnover. In that case, I don't let them "take back" their die selection. I will tell them I have wrestle, but when they go to put both players down, I'll tell them I'm not using it and force a turnover. I don't do it to be a jerk, but if I let them take it back then I'd never be able to force a turnover by not using wrestle.


To keep myself from being a jerk, I try to always inform my opponent of my skills BEFORE they roll the dice.


Edit: FWIW, the use of wrestle doesn't cause the turnover. It's when the opponent has wrestle and doesn't use it that causes the turnover. I'm pretty sure the OP meant it this way

[Warpstone]

Yah, it's the "surprise" part that I'm getting at. Proper order is pretty clear. Basically, I know the sporting thing to do is allow the re-think, I just can't think of any consolation to offer a surprised player besides study rosters and ask lots of questions before picking dice.

How is this enforced in leagues and tournaments?

[Warpstone]

Edit: FWIW, the use of wrestle doesn't cause the turnover. It's when the opponent has wrestle and doesn't use it that causes the turnover. I'm pretty sure the OP meant it this way

It would be a turnover as the player getting wrestled down had the ball.

Again, I agree with your practice of informing, but really there's no way to make this mandatory, is there?

So far, I think the only option really is "roller beware" and educate coaches to be more careful before picking their results. After all, the entire way a play like this goes is dependent on the active player's choice of die. A takeback would have to be a free concession from the wrestler's coach.

[dsavillian]

It would be a turnover as the player getting wrestled down had the ball.

I stand corrected! (unless you have wrestle, in which case I lay down corrected)

[Pagan]

In our matches we generally will say if a player has something on such an obvious choice there, and as long as the coach hasn't moved onto the next action(or rolled dice) changes are fine. We play to have fun, and if that is the only way you could win then you should just stop playing. This also speeds the game up as I don't stop to ask every skill each of your players has that will have an impact on this action.

In a tournament I'd still be fine with it as I remind the coach. After a few times I may start to get annoyed and remind him to ask if a player has something that's important like that. That's what the skill rings are good for.

[antipixi]

I would always inform a coach that my player had wrestle before he chooses which dice. However, I would not tell him whether I was going to use it until after. I have no problem with someone changing their mind based on what skill they are told a player has, but would never accept them changing their mind after I decide whether or not to use it. Same goes with sidestep and stand firm.

[Darkson]

I normally do the same as antipixi, but I also feel the emphasis should be on the blocking coach to ask if there are any skills that could effect the block.
Of course, if the opposing coach withheld the info ("Does you player have Block or Wrestle?", "No", "Right, Both down", "Oh, I have Wrestle") then I call BS, but if info has been freely offered in the past, and given when requested, it's should be up to th Blocking coach to check.

[alternat]

generally, most italian players are used to mark skilled players in some way, using plastic rings or bottle crowncaps under the base, of different colors if necessary.
This is mainly useful in tournaments where is necessary to tell skilled players from unskilled ones, but is often used also in league matches.

no need to say that most of the times this is mostly useful to me than to my opponent... since I tend to forget which skills have my very own players!!!

[Rodge]

I've always played it like Darkson states.

My teamsheet is always available to my opponent, I go through skilled players before the game and I'll list any applicable skills on my player anytime he asks. But I certainly wouldn't allow him to change his mind after he picked a dice and declared an action and I declared my reaction (for example, he pushes and I declare I use sidestep or your example of both down and I declare I use wrestle)

Sportsmanship is key in BB. But I think it's unsporting for a player to try to change his mind based on his opponent's response if he doesn't like what the outcome. Chalk it up as a learning experience and move on, I'd say.

[Warpstone]

Rodge, I don't think that the blitzer's player changed his mind because the defender used wrestle. He just didn't realize the defender had wrestle when choosing dice. It's a no-brainer to pick the push result before the defender activates his skill. It's that crucial "oh, you've got wrestle, so I'll take the push" that he wasn't allowed to do according to strict rules.

It's tough. I know 99% of the time this doesn't go down the road of rule lawyering. But at the same time, I can't think of any defence for the blitzing coach when the wrestle player's coach says "too bad, you picked your die."

You can try and avoid this issue in a small league where everyone knows each other. But how do you resolve it in a big league or tournament where two players may come from entirely different sportsmanship norms?

[civilian_number_two]

I think the rule of thumb should be "Do I want to play Blood Bowl or do I want to play Magic:the Gathering? If the former, let the Blitzing coach take the die that he wants to take, regardless of whatever bonehead decision he initially made. Then the game will be about general strategy and dice rolls, as, IMO, it should be. If the latter, then call IP every time, force him to Dodge if he accidently touches a square that moves through a TZ even if his player had another perfectly safe route to take, and in this case, he's stuck with the die he initially chose, even if no well-informed coach would ever take that die. Becaue M:tG is as much about strategy as it is about nitpicky rules-lawyering and calling judges over twice a game; let's all do our best to make BB exactly like it!

[Demagoge]

In your small league, when you know each other, I play for fun. So, I´ll mostly (perhaps not in the final ) let my friend choose something different. If I don´t know my opponent and it is a competitiv environment like a tournament I´d like to stay close to the rules. If he hasn´t asked me, it is his fault.