Talk Fantasy Football

We have made Piling On a Trait in our league because it was a unanimous decision that it is simply too powerful for how easy it is to get. The post below is taken from another board where I explained my logic, and attempted to address the major concerns of doing this. The opening paragraph is in response to someone who actually tried to argue anything else in the game gives more than a +2 modifier to a 2D6 roll.


First, to the person who attempted to equate plusses to ST and positive modifiers to a 2D6 roll, your logic is completely erronious: they are NOT the same. Dauntless boosts your ST and CAN therefore dictate the NUMBER of dice you roll. PO (or any similar skill) gives a positive modifier to a 2D6 roll. These two things are apples and oranges. The fact is, nothing else in the game modifies a 2D6 roll by more than +2. Fact.

how exactly is this skill being abused? you end your turn on the ground for a +5 to the ARMOR roll only. i guarantee you that player will be surrounded and fouled every single time. assuming you only get 3 actual assists, thats a +4. bringing your required roll from a 10 to a 6. thats even odds of keeping him on the ground for at least one more turn.

That is a large assumption. You keep indicating fouling is as easy as all that. You ARE using the LRB rules for fouling are you not? There is a substantial risk involved, and it is NOT easy to allocate 4 (or more) players to fouling one guy AND maintain positioning for a solid offense/defense. Finally, and here is your largest oversight, what do you do when I have 4 (or more) players with PO? You only get ONE foul per game, remember? The reason Big Guys are particularly ridiculous is because they have 5 (or more) ST AND Mighty Blow (so +1 to Injury all but guranteed) out of the BOX! Since they now progress the same as other players, by only their 2nd skill (Block or Pro first) they are casualty machines (read: Unholy Terrors). However, the abuse comes when you have 4 or more ST4+ players with PO, as I go into later in this reply.

ok, first of all, the fact that no other trait has such a huge mod has nothing to do w/ this skill being too powerful. that's like saying a chaos or skaven player shouldnt be able to get both claw and RSC because its a +2/+2. while that combo is truly evil, (as well as dauntless/multiple block) i dont hear anyone complaining that you shouldnt be able to get it.

Wrong. It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Indeed, thank you for making my point for me: the combo skills you indicate each give a +2 modifier. Not +3, not +4, not +5, and certainly not +6. Additionally, both those skills take (gasp) DOUBLES to get, and are restricted to a few races. The other combo you mention, while it is VERY powerful, does NOT modify a 2D6 roll by +5.

second, the fact of the matter is, whether u decide to foul or not, the piling on player is on the ground. this means, with their 2 remaining MA after they stand up, they're not going to be useful on the next turn. and if you do decide to foul them, that's your choice. as i stated above, the modifier that you should get on the foul is roughly equal the the modifier that your opponent gets w/ his ST5 piling on. is it worth more to you in the current situation to bring a few players over and deal w/ the big guy, or do you ignore him? that's a coaching call, and you need to make that decision as it arises. i make it sound simple to foul someone, because it IS simple. whether you want to take that risk is your choice, just because you're too afraid of the 1 in 6 chance of losing a lineman vs possibly removing a very detrimental opponent doesnt mean the choice isnt there.

I didn't say it wasn't a choice. I DID say you are comparing apples and oranges, because you are. One takes a Knock-Down from a player who gets 2 Dice Blocks on just about any other player on the field. The other takes upi at LEAST 4 players (barring DP), causes a TO if the person is caught, sends that player off the pitch and out of the GAME, cannot gain SPPs, and is a straight-up luck roll (ie no mods unless DP, assuming it wasn't needed for the Armor), and even a Knock Out result can be Thick Skulled (if an Ogre). If you are using the fouling rules via LRB, fouling is NOT as simple as you make it to be; you aren't even considering the assists the PRONE player gets, not to mention a GOOD coach will tie every player up he can so you have to dodge, etc just to GET there.

third, you are still completely ignoring the consequences of making it a trait. currently, anyone can get it on a double, and MOST blitzer types can take it regularly. what happens if it does become a trait?

AMAZON: only blitzers can take on a double

Makes sense. Nothing lost here. Not a bruiser race.

CHAOS: can take on double, instead of any roll

Good. As it should be.

CHAOS DWARF: hobgoblins can no longer take on double, rest of team can only take on double instead of any roll

Good. As it should be.

DARK ELF: NO ONE can take this skill EVER

Further evidence they need access to a Big Guy. Not a bruiser race.

DWARF: runners can no longer take this skill EVER, rest of team can only take on a double

As it should be. They ARE runners!

GOBBOS/FLINGS: can NEVER take this skill

Uhh. Yeah.

HIGH ELF: NO ONE can take this skill EVER

RE: Dark Elves.

HUMAN: only blitzers can take on a double

Good. As it should be.

LIZARD: saurus/krox can take on double, skinks can no longer take this skill EVER

Good. SKINKS?!?

NORSE: only blitzers can take on a double

Who have Jump Up. Thanks for making my point crystal here.

ORC: blitzers/bobs can only take on double, rest of team can NEVER get this skill

BOs with PO = ridiculous. As it should be.

SKAVEN: only stormvermin/rat ogre can take on double, rest of team can NEVER get this skill

Good. As it should be.

UNDEAD: only mummies can take on double, rest of team can NEVER take this skill.

Thanks for my point crystal again. Mummies with PO = so broken not funny.

WOOD ELF: NO ONE can take this skill EVER

WRONG. They get this thing called a Tree Man. Not a bruiser race.

BIG GUYS: can only take on double

As it should be.

Understand this skill is about using your extreme girth to squash another player. Stunties...give me a break. Agility based teams...perhaps a FEW of them could learn it, but please. Big burly fat guys get this skill...it is a TRAIT of being a hulking figure who watches too much wrestling...

so what you see here is that the only people you're going to keep from getting the skill are the ones that you're not even complaining about having it.

Perhaps you are missing the point. I'm NOT complaining about anyone HAVING the skill, I'm complaining about how EASY it is for them to GET it. I, among others, have already shown that taking it away from certain races will not hurt them at all. Making it a doubles roll makes it more difficult to get, and therefore MOST of the players who would normally get it will wind up taking Guard if they don't roll doubles. At this point, IF they roll doubles, Stand Firm or Dodge are BETTER because PO causes you to be ON THE GROUND rendering Guard USELESS. Unless the player gets LUCKY and rolls doubles on his first 2 skills, they will think VERY long and hard about taking PO. Will this happen? Of COURSE it will, but it will be UNCOMMON for these players to have it as a 2nd skill as opposed to STANDARD as it is now. Once you have Guard, you don't WANT PO.

any ST4 or higher player can still take it, but only on a double. and personally, having played primarily skaven and chaos, i wouldnt take piling on and risk my player getting hurt, i'd take claw, and get a +2 (instead of +3 in the majority of cases) and leave you with no recourse whatsoever.

Exactly WHAT thread are you referring to? You keep making my point over and over again. Exactly, the players who CAN get it currently (the ones that I AM complaining about), will have a MUCH harder time getting it, AND have a much harder choice when they CAN get it...this is my entire point! As to Chaos and Skaven, they don't take PO as priorty anyway (like the majority of races in BB). The problem is Big Guys, Mummies, and Black Orcs...PO makes them insanely powerful! I have NO problem with this power, as long as it is difficult to get AND a difficult choice. As it stands now, if I DON'T roll a double, PO is GURANTEED. It is too powerful for how easy it is to obtain. Compare the other traits if you disagree. As for the races that will NEVER get it as a result of it being a trait...well, they never choose tp get it anyways, and it doesn't even make sense that they should honestly.

you are ignoring the simple fact that big guys exist to do damage to the other team. piling on is a balanced skill because its not normally available to that many players, and you put your player on the ground. how many people take diving tackle? that skill all but ensures that you need a natural 6 to make a dodge, but its not often used because your player ends up on the ground. its the same thing w/ piling on. and i STILL dont see how its being abused, nor how it would no longer be abused if it was made a trait. if you're suggesting that by making it a trait, people would simply choose a more useful skill and ignore it, all you really want is for the skill itself to just go away. i dont see that as a rational solution.

I don't want it to go away, I want it to be balanced. Again, you give a completely fallacious analogy...DT does NOT modify a 2D6 roll by +5. Not remotely the same thing. Not remotely. The fact that no other skill modifies a 2D6 roll by more than +2 is reason enough to see it is NOT balanced, but this is NOT the problem. Since deduction doesn't seem to be your strong point, I'll spell it out for you. Big Guys with PO are nightmares beyond what nightmares they are out of the box. 4 Black Orcs with PO is a nightmare. 2 Mummies with PO is a nightmare (Khemri get FOUR!!). These guys take this skill with impunity. Making it a trait makes it harder for them to get, AND makes them THINK about taking it. Having every Troll, Mummy, and Black Orc (etc) in the game have Piling On will become at least uncommon, as opposed to standard as it is now. Slow, High AV, High ST players with Piling On become casualty machines. As to a "more useful" skill for these players, Guard is about the only other choice, Dodge on doubles; you must play some very poor coaches if you don't consider Piling On extremely useful...I'd LOVE to have you meet my Orcs.

Finally, because I cannot resist (reply from same person as above quotes):

i am already aware that at times i can present ideas in such a way as to appear that im being confrontational. apparently im not the only one. btw, diving tackle does a -2 on a 1d6. what's that on a 2d6?

Apple, meet orange. One is a roll on a 1D6, where a 1 always fails and a 6 always succeeds. Likewise, the table is based on AG 1-6, and the roll either fails or succeeds. If it fails, the player falls down, and makes a normal AV roll.

The OTHER is a +5 on 2D6, where the average roll needed is an 8. Using deductive reasoning, we find the average roll for a player with this skill is a 3. If it succeeds, the player is IMMEDIATELY either: stunned, KOd, Injured, or DEAD.

Of course I'm confrontational; I'm an Orc.

Well personally i don't have a problem with it, mummies and black orcs have low movement, stay away from them, what was worse was when they could get piling on and jump up as well, they can't do that any more. Its hard for these players to get spp as it is, getting past an armour roll and then getting high roll for a cas isn't an easy task. When they are piled on they are out for the next turn and losing field position at times.

Chances are you can either get away from them, put an expendable player next to them, or match these players for str. Ive never had a problem with piling on players. Also giving them piling on is more time without black, don't know about you how often do i roll skull both down with players without block, often without a rr to hand.

I feel piling on is only a problem if you let it be, same goes with a line of dwarfs with guard, or many other possable player/skill combos. I rank stand firm over piling on anyway and its a trait for a good reason, its far more useful and not just for str players.

Better yet. Just revert it back to its old form. We've never left that form in our league, and pilling on is neither too powerful nor too weak. It's taken about as often as guard and more often than mighty blow. Plus, it makes 1000 times more sense that way.

The other thing to remember is that LRB has made PO much better relative to the other skills.

• MB is weaker as it is either Av or Injury.
• You can't use Pro on Av or Injury
• Fouling is reduced in quantity (IGMEOY)
• DP isn't as effective (either Av or injury)

All this adds up to making PO better even if it isn't changed.

IMO they should just change PO and Diving tackle back so you go prone before rolling the dice.

ianwilliams wrote:IMO they should just change PO and Diving tackle back so you go prone before rolling the dice.

Thanks Ian, exactly how we have houseruled these skills...