Strong Arm, a worthwhile doubles pick?

[spubbbba]

I’ve seen quite a few tactics threads where Strong Arm is the recommended doubles choice for throwers by many people for both AG4 (Elves) and AG3 (mostly Human but also Skaven, Norse and Amazon too I guess) players.

I couldn’t find any topics about the skill that were using the new rule set as in LRB4 all skills were worth the same TR.

My instincts tell me that it is not worth the doubles roll and it is better to take a normal skill such as block or accurate (dodge for elves) or use the double to take something like Guard or dodge (for humans, norse and skaven).

My thinking is that Strong Arm is very situational; it is only used when you are throwing the ball at a short pass or more, so is useless on a quick pass, on defence or if another player has the ball. It also only comes into play if you would have failed throwing at the higher band so a human thrower with Strong arm doing a long pass would normally need a 5 and with strong arm he needs a 4, so it is not used on a 1-3, 5 or 6. No matter what the agility involved or the modifiers a 1 or 6 will make all skills pointless so 1/3 of the time it won’t matter.

For agility 4 with accurate, strong arm wouldn’t help with a short pass either unless there was some other modifier as you already succeed on a 2+.

Things like tackle zones, very sunny weather and disturbing presence complicate matters further. The other thing to factor in is that unlike other agility tests a modified 1 is still a fumble for passing so AG4 with accurate and strong arm are better than AG6 for doing a long bomb. A Wood Elf thrower with SA and accurate will succeed on a 3+, fail on a 2 and fumble on a 1 whilst the same thrower with AG6 instead of those 2 skills will fumble on a 1-3 and succeed on a 4+.

So can any of our resident maths wizzes work out the improved odds of making a pass with Strong Arm assuming the player has the pass skill and either AG3 or 4?

[Ulthuan_Express]

If your thrower is passing a lot, then it should be Strong Arm, as pure throwers are always aiming for the Holy Trinity of AG4, Strong Arm & Accurate, giving you 2+/2+/2+/3+ down the range ruler with a Pass re-roll. Outside of the various Elf and Human teams, though, there's not a great deal of scope for that.

If they're running with the Thrower a lot, take Dodge as its defensive abilities are excellent, never mind if you ever actually need to dodge, of course.

If they're just on the pitch for the Sure Hands or Passing chart access and like to get stuck in, or you don't really have a plan for them, then choose Guard, because it's almost never a bad idea to have multiple Guarders.

As for actual statistics, your guess is as good as mine.

[Buggrit]

Yeah, but having an AG 4 Thrower with Accurate and Strong Arm means you can make Long Bombs on a 3+ (normally with Pass to re-roll)

[bouncergriim]

AG 3 human thrower with accurate and strong arm 2+/2+/3+/4+ only fumbles on a natural one (excluding TZs). I would like that for my accurate thrower right now. With a pass reroll, makes the long pass a possiblilty with humans add diving catch to the catcher and you have a real nice team there.

[Smeborg]

I think it depends on the preferred style of play of your team. If the team likes to pass, then I would recommend it as a doubles pick on most AG3 or AG4 Throwers (or AG5 of course...). It not only improves the odds of an accurate pass, but it can greatly reduce the odds of a fumble. For example, a Human Thrower with Strong Arm can pass 10 squares (Long) with only a 1 in 36 chance of a fumble. Likewise Long Bomb (13 squares) fumble odds for him go down to 1 in 9. These reductions in odds can be quite important in critical and desperate situations when you are trying to save the game. Strong Arm can also help to make an accurate pass (or avoid a fumble) when you are in a tackle zone (if you do not have Nerves of Steel). In general, it's like extending the Thrower's range by one step, often meaning that the Thrower can lurk out of range of attack for at least a turn, before having to commit to the pass. So the skill can in effect be worth a turn of "stalling".

Hope that helps.

[bouncergriim]

I think it is good for hummies to have one good thrower as a strong arm, accurate and one runner thrower. The heart of humans is to be versatile and not get locked into one play style or another. I wouldn't want both throwers to have strong arm, but one gives me more options and allows my thrower to pick up the ball hang back then decide where to throw it.

[Hitonagashi]

When I play a passing offense, I play it very much like a running offense, except my thrower with SA, Accurate, mv 7 is stuck to deep in the backfield. With HE, especially against elves, this can be quite powerful, as they need to send 2 players to hunt down the thrower to sack him, and with a 3+ anti-interception roll, and 2+ pass 2+ catch, it means that teams quite frequently open themselves to a flank.

If they don't attack the thrower (quite a few don't), then I'm only down one player on offense, and I don't need to protect the ball carrier.

The downside of this is that I've essentially got 6-7 skills devoted to offense(accurate, strong arm, mv 7 on the thrower, NoS on one catcher, and overskilling of catchers due to using them to score whenever it gets risky), and I'm not sure that it's worth it.

Against kill heavy teams, I find that I haven't really got enough skills devoted to defense to stop the slow grind.

Scoring on offense is easy (11 of the last 15 games I've scored in, with 5 journeymen per game on average), but I think there's too much TV devoted to offense. An elf offense is easy anyway. It's quite valuable that scoring with 4 players is still perfectly doable against an 11 man chaos team(due to being able to hide far enough back that I can't be blitzed, and long bomb into the endzone on a 3+), but I'm not sure it's worth the extravagant cost.

My team is here, I've been rebuilding from 4 players, so I've lost a *lot* of the last 20 games. Once my thrower dies, my next one will probably be a leader monkey, and play a running offense.

[Smeborg]

It's worth considering alternative doubles choices to clarify why you might choose Strong Arm.

For non-Elven Throwers, Dodge then Sidestep are good on a Runner type (to complement Block, Fend). Such a Thrower can play on defense as well as offense, being relatively well protected. Sure Feet then Sprint can be good choices on a true Runner, particularly on an otherwise slow team (Kick-off Return being the complementary skill).

For Skaven Throwers, doubles open up mutation choices, in particular Extra Arms, and possibly Two Heads.

Once again, it comes down to role definition for the player. If you have a defined role in your head, the doubles pick will follow.

All the best.

[Woolfe]

I agree....

Its definately rolespecific. I have 2 Human Throwers, one with Acc, Block, Dumpoff,Safethrow and NOS, and the other with Acc,Block, Kick off return and leader.
If the first thrower gets another doubles, it will be Catch all the way, as I often use him as a running ball carrier, who combined with a NOS Catcher and ag4 Blitzer can dumpoff at any given time to either of them with a pretty solid chance of success.
My other thrower would definately take strong arm, as not only does he collect the ball, and generally pass it to the running thrower, but it would also open up the longer pass option as well, giving me more opportunities to bluff with my running thrower , and then pass to a player eslewhere on the field.

So my experience is if you are playing a running game, then more often then not you will be making safe passes between players without much interference, but if you are using your thrower to actually play a pass up the field game, then it is pretty golden.

Woolfe

[Smurf]

It gives you an option for longer passes and less chance of a fumble.

Don't expect your game to be the same all the time.

There is nothing like a long bomb thrown with confidence that winds your opponent up.

[Buggrit]

Indeed... I loved my AG4 Strong Arm, Accurate, Orc Thrower.... Long Bomb on a 3+ with a pass re-roll? Yes please!

[Smurf]

I have an AG5 WE thrower with Accurate, Strong Arm and Safe Throw.

47 completions to his name over 23 games.

[B SIDE]

Sure Feet is a great skill for passers and runners alike. Those extra two GFI's are all-but guaranteed (lol I'm begging for nuffle to get me for saying that), and getting one range closer is better than adding +1 to the pass.

[Digger Goreman]

I have an AG5 WE thrower with Accurate, Strong Arm and Safe Throw.

47 completions to his name over 23 games.

I'm beginning to think that opponents of these abominations should be loaning enough gold to coaches to buy a wizard to hunt down these freaks of the game....

*Sigh*... back to the thread....

The only time I think Strong Arm is a wasted double is if your name is D****s B****n and you throw consistent 5's and 6's for passes anyway... Otherwise it seems as good or better than anything else (unless you have a dire need at the moment to outweigh the choice)....

[neverworking]

The range ruler isn't the only potential negative modifier out there either so don't assume every pass will be done under ideal conditions.

My general rule though is never take strong arm unless you will still want to take accurate sometime in the next 2 skill levels (if you don't already have it). For example I wouldn't take it early on a dark elf runner because there are far too many other skills I want to give the player before I would get back to taking accurate, which is simply the better skill.