Alternate Passing System

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:34 pm

Keep the rules from LRB as they are (Range and TZs/Foul Appearences mod Target# and Roll, natural 6 always accurate, natural 1 always fumble) with the following exception:

Only a roll that is modified to a 1 from TZs/Foul Appearences *alone* is ruled a fumble. Range mods can never result in a fumble.

Example:

AG4 throwing a Bomb in a TZ.
Target: 3 + (-2 Range) + (-1 TZ) = 6 <nothing changes here>
Roll: 3 + (-2 Range) + (-1 TZ) = 0 (ie 1) <nothing changes here>
Result: Inaccurate
Why? Because 3 + (-1 TZ) = 2, and the Range doesn't apply to fumble checks.

This is about the easiest change I can think of for the current rules that keeps it pretty much the same, but also assuages the majority on both sides. It isn't overly complex, either, because how many experienced players throw beyond Short Range in a TZ without skills? Sure, TTM will fumble less, but it will be just as inaccurate as it already is. Likewise for High AG players without Passing skills. The result of this system would be just as many accurate throws, more inaccurate throws, and less fumbles.

Comments?

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:42 pm

I believe I stated on another thread that this is the system our league uses. I can tell you that it has not yet proven to be unbalanced, but it does really place a premium on defensive players who can pick up the ball when playing against pass happy teams. It doesn't make too much of a difference against strength teams.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:52 pm

This premium is based on the increased numbers of inaccurate passes? All the more reason to have a Skilled Thrower.

How does the increased number of inaccurate TTMs affect things? Marginal?

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:03 pm

A couple of relevent threads:
viewtopic.php?t=711
viewtopic.php?t=1006

You can put me in the "If it ain't broke..." camp on this one.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:19 pm

One of the most repeated problem I see people mentioning is "punting," or the act of throwing to an empty square. If this tactic is so ridiculous, how does lessening the chance to fumble make it worse? Likewise, how does increasing the chance to fumble make it better? Should you not just make it illegal to do it? How can you on one hand say its a legitmate tactic, then on the other indicate it is too powerful if Range doesn't increase chance to fumble?

If you used this alternate pass system, AND you didn't allow "punting," isn't everything accounted for? The only concern left is how it affects TTM.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:23 pm

Deathwing: Thanks for posting the threads. It made for some interesting reading. After playing a league for almost a year without range modifiers adding to fumbling chances, I'm not sold on Galak's opinion. In my experience, it can make the line of scrimmage less important and keep games from devolving into cage bashing - something I'm all for.

In additon, we have not had a surge in Elf teams winning trophies. We've had Humans, Skaven and Lizardmen win so far.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:06 pm

I tried to compromise.

The PBeM tool now has 3 settings for Passing:

1) LRB 1.3
2) Only TZs modify the pass roll for modified 1 fumbles
3) Only a 1 fumbles the ball.

Did not add that FA could count for the modified fumbles ... if this is more the norm ... its an easy change to the program or I can add it as a 4th option.

This was the biggest reason why I was going to play in the Lustrian league as they use option 3, but they also don't allow me Deeproot, the Master Chef, and they don't use the Handicap table ... so I passed on the end for trying 'Flings in this environment.

I just know that I'd be scoring a lot more TDs without the LRB 1.3 passing fumble rules.

Galak

Al the Rat · Post by **Al the Rat** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:16 pm

I don't have a lot to add to the topic except that natural 1 and natural 6 has always been how passing has been interpreted in my leagues. I think it was about 2 years before any of us realised that range modifiers caused a minus to the dice, and not a plus to the target. And it just made no sense. As has already been said how does throwing a ball further increase your chance of dropping it at your feet?

I can understand Grumbledook's theory that a throwers action changes due to distance and so harder/longer passes may increase the risk of a fumble. But I would interpret this a risk of the ball not travelling as far as intended. If a natural 1 is rolled, or is modified to 1 by TZs the ball is dropped, but rather than a 2+ being an inaccurate pass scattering from the square aimed for, it could be ruled that a roll 2 or less than the target roll falls short and scatters from a randomly determined square in the range band preceding the target.

Not sure if I explained that very well, but it might be a method to balance the empty square throw tactic, if it does need to be balanced.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:21 pm

I gotta chime in here.
My league used the nat 1 fumble rule for as long as I can remember. It was just one of those things that we changed right from the get go because fumble were optional rules anyway. But after playing strictly BB2K1 and playing the MBBL I have to say that I feel the nat 1 rule is a mistake. It makes passing much harder and takes some wind out of the sails of those damned elves. In our 3rd edition league elves and skaven got beat up because of our fouling rules but without those checks and balances in place the throwing has the potential to unbalance those teams.
I have to say that I am an ex of the Natural 1 Fumble camp. The 50% chance of a fumble stops alot of "punting" and BS oopdie-oop plays.

Don't know what an Oopdie-oop is? Go watch Varsity Blues

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:22 pm

Xynok wrote:If this tactic is so ridiculous, how does lessening the chance to fumble make it worse?

Its not ridiculous that the problem

If you used this alternate pass system, AND you didn't allow "punting," isn't everything accounted for? The only concern left is how it affects TTM.

But the current system prevents both mass ball movement and punting. I see punting as a legitimate tactic and the current rules control it fine. Change them and you run into what Chet said ... you greatly devalue throwers and throwing skills and almost anyone can now move the ball up field fairly well.

Galak

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:43 pm

you greatly devalue throwers and throwing skills and almost anyone can now move the ball up field fairly well.

I feel we shall have to agree to disagree. I do not feel this system greatly devalues throwers and throwing skills. All it does it make it easier for High AG players (and everyone) to throw inaccurate passes. You simply have to make a few modifications to your defense at best.

If more fumbles is what keeps punting balanced, then I would call that ridiculous. Just my opinion of course.

All that remains to be seen is how it affects TTM, particularly for the Orcs. One AG4 Goblin and a 1 Turn TD seems very likely using this system. I don't like having one set of rules for TTM and one set for normal passing. Still, Goblins and Halflings aren't aerodynamic (as skummy put it).

Perhaps keeping the rules the same IS ultimately best.

Vesticle · Post by **Vesticle** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:36 am

It makes a big impact on TTM. Remember that with TTM, it makes little difference if the pass is accurate or not, if you are trying to score a TD - just changes the landing from a 3+ to a 4+. The only thing you don't want to do is fumble - because if you are throwing a fling or goblin, as long as he gets in that direction, he'll almost always be in range to score if he lands properly.

The reason it devalues throwers, is because now players aren't worried about avoiding a fumble, just throwing accurate passes. Under the current rules a human thrower that picks up accurate now can throw a long pass and still only fumble on a 1, even though he has the same chance (not including the pass skill) as an elf lineman as making the pass accurate. If this were changed, the passing skills would become significantly devalued.

When I first started playing, I fumbled on a 2, because I didn't realize the range modifiers apply to fumbling, and thought it didn't make sense. After having played a while, I now see the reasons that the rule is as it is, and fully support it.

David

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:34 am

Xynok- It doesn't cause more fumbles. It causes less passes in the outer two ranges. The passing teams are forced to hold the ball longer and move into passing position instead of just picking it up and letting one rip.

McSnaga · Post by **McSnaga** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:21 am

Maybe you should rephrase 'Letting one rip'.

It may not mean the same thing where you come from is it does here. Then again .. for skaven and goblins it seems somehow appropriate.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:47 am

Hmmn...An elf picks up a ball, tucks it in, and lets one rip...IT'S A LONG BOMB!!!! What did he eat!?!?!?!