Concession - score adjustment

[Shteve0]

Hi guys, we use the CRP in our local TT league, the NZCBBL.

We had an incident last night where a coach, reduced to 2 players, conceded at the Kick Off set up before Turn 13.

Their opponent was 2-0 up and wants the score amended to 4-0, but I can't see where this is covered in the rules.

Any help?

Cheers

[lunchmoney]

Page 29 of the crp, if a team can field only 2 or fewer players they can concede with no additional penalties.

[Shteve0]

Yeah, I saw that - but "additional" is a vague word, and I can't see a reference to a score adjustment anywhere in the rules, though I know it's applied in, for example, Cyanide's version.

The winning coach put forward the argument that he missed out on scoring more touchdowns. My counter argument is that if he had spent more time scoring and less time deliberately beating up his opponent he would have scored more TDs anyway, but I can kind of see his point. That he received 5 skills as a result of the game anyway is kind of a moot point, though with that in mind pushing to crack his opponent's TD difference while boosting his own is literally adding insult to injury.

So would you rule on game called off at 2-0, and result remains at that? What's fair in this situation?

[dode74]

I can't find reference to a score adjustment in the rulebook.

In the Cyanide game you don't get 2 extra TDs when your opponent concedes; I just tested it in single player where HE went 2-0 up against WE and the WE retired: final score was 2-0. The Cyanide client will make it so you win by at least 2 TDs, i.e. if you were losing the you get 2 more than the opponent had, if you were winning by 1 or 2 the you get to win by 2, and if you were winning by more then the score stays as it was.

I'd call it 2-0.

[Digger Goreman]

I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but I remember that there are two sections that speak about concessions and am pretty darned sure it is registered as a 2-0 loss....

[dode74]

ctrl+f of "2-0" in LRB6 pdf brings up 3 references to 2-0:
1. Refused challenge is a 2-0 loss, but nobody gets any cash, SPP or FF.
2. Fluff on page 39.
3. Fluff on page 40.

ctrl+f of "concede" is mentioned on:
1. Page 6 (which refers to pages 15 and 29)
2. Page 15, which mentions no scoreline at all and is simply part of the single game rules "You may choose to concede a match at the start of one of yourown turns, before moving the Turn marker along the track."
3. Page 26: "team that concedes a match must give its MVP to the opposing team (i.e., the winning coach gets two MVPs and the losing coach gets none)."
4. Page 29, first place is in the post-match: "Remember that teams that concede a match do not receive any winnings."
5. Page 29, main Concede rules, talks mainly about the 51SPP rule: "A coach that concedes (see page 15) before setting up for a kick-off where he could only field 2 or less players suffers no
additional penalties. If one coach concedes the match for any other reason then the winner gains all of the loser’s winnings and MVP from this match. In addition, the loser automatically loses one Fan Factor and may not roll for a new one, and any players in the loser’s team that have 51 SPPs or more will leave the team on a D6 roll of 1-3. Roll separately for each player with 51 or more SPPs to see if they leave."

No mention of 2-0 for a concession.

[Shteve0]

So, in this instance, are we saying that the conceding coach still loses his MVP and winnings, even though he quit due to having two or fewer players? I did a Ctrl+F on the CRP this morning and I recall there to be two fewer references than in your list (ie no mention of the lost MVP and winnings) when I did so, and I understood the reference to "with no additional penalties" to imply that the winnings and MVP would be retained.

Thanks for your input to this so far, guys - much appreciated. I'm lothe to punish either party too harshly, but likewise I don't want to stray from the rules as written and be accused of mediating with an uneven hand.

[Darkson]

The rules on p.15 of the CRP (p.11 of the PDF) apply if you concede using the basic rules i.e. not the league rules. P.29 (p.25 of the PDF) says you don't suffer "additional" penalties if you concede for 2 or less, then lists the additional penalties if you concede for any other reason.
However, the specific rules for MVP (p.26 CRP, p.22 PDF) and winnings (p.29 CRP, p.25 PDF) state they are lost if one team concedes.

So I'm lead to believe the conceding team in this case loses their winnings and MVP, but doesn't lose a FF or apply the 51spp rule.


I wonder if he's confusing the bonus TDs awarded when the opposing player can't set anyone up?

[Smeborg]

This is a rare situation in our (tabletop) league. From memory, I have always applied a 2-0 win in these cases (however, I would add that I have been the only player to whom the matches have been conceded [as well as being the league commish], and I don't mind "suffering" a nominal TD disadvantage in the interests of a simple and consistent ruling).

From what the other posts say, it looks like the situation may not be adequately covered by the rules. If you apply a 2-0 win, this may disadvantage the winner (if he is winning by more than 2 TDs at the time of concession). Thus I suggest you rule as you see fit. Perhaps a 2-0 win, unless the current result is better, in which case it stands. This could be material if TD difference or TDs scored is used as a tie-break at the end of the season.

Hope that helps, and all the best.

[Darkson]

I think part of the "problem" is that because there is no fixed way to run a league or tournament (though there are suggestions) there's no fixed why to handle concessions. It's one of those things that is left to the Commish to decide, though as shown here, it can be missed until it actually happens (I had the same thing happen in our first league).

Our house rule is that the team that was conceded on get's enough TDs to win by two (if they weren't already), but these bonus TDs don't give SPPs.
Has only happened once since, when a Elf coach was 2-0 up against a Dwarf team. The Elf coach got called away. His opponent was happy to call the game at that point (3 turns left 2nd half), but the Elf coach insisted they abide by the league rules, so the Dwarfs "scored" 4 TDs in 3 turns!

[Loki]

The rules on p.15 of the CRP (p.11 of the PDF) apply if you concede using the basic rules i.e. not the league rules. P.29 (p.25 of the PDF) says you don't suffer "additional" penalties if you concede for 2 or less, then lists the additional penalties if you concede for any other reason.
However, the specific rules for MVP (p.26 CRP, p.22 PDF) and winnings (p.29 CRP, p.25 PDF) state they are lost if one team concedes.

The CRP actually says... "A coach that concedes (see page 15) before setting up for a kick-off where he could only field 2 or less player suffers no additional penalties. If one coach concedes the match for any other reason then the winner gains all of the loser's winnings and MVP for this match.

I think the text under MVP and Winnings is a reminder for the general run of the mill 'toys out the pram' concession not the smashed to a pulp concession which is a exception.

Personally (and as BUBBA's current commish) I think that if you get to the situation described where after KO's rolls the player only has 2 players available and he concedes it should just be treated as if the clock had run out. So score stays as it is, loser gets his MVP and winnings.

[EDIT = I would now like to remove this rubbish wot I wrote, but for continuity of the thread I'll leave it in]AND Yes, this does present the situation where if a team went quickly 2-0 up and then the opposition pounded them into the ground and went in for a 2-1 then the game could be legitematley called by the team with two players and still win. The Mmoral of that story is makes sure he can set up 3 players for the next drive. [/EDIT]

I wonder if he's confusing the bonus TDs awarded when the opposing player can't set anyone up?

+1

[Shteve0]

Awesome, thanks guys - that's good enough for me. Have published the following on our league forum:

The rules that cover a concession can be found in the CRP as follows.

1. Page 6 (which refers to pages 15 and 29)
2. Page 15, which mentions "You may choose to concede a match at the start of one of yourown turns, before moving the Turn marker along the track."
3. Page 26: "team that concedes a match must give its MVP to the opposing team (i.e., the winning coach gets two MVPs and the losing coach gets none)."
4. Page 29, first place is in the post-match: "Remember that teams that concede a match do not receive any winnings."
5. Page 29, main Concede rules, talks mainly about the 51SPP rule: "A coach that concedes (see page 15) before setting up for a kick-off where he could only field 2 or less players suffers no additional penalties. If one coach concedes the match for any other reason then the winner gains all of the loser’s winnings and MVP from this match. In addition, the loser automatically loses one Fan Factor and may not roll for a new one, and any players in the loser’s team that have 51 SPPs or more will leave the team on a D6 roll of 1-3. Roll separately for each player with 51 or more SPPs to see if they leave."

As an addendum to these rules as stated: if a player concedes a match mid game, the score is adjusted so that the non-conceding team (ie the team that has not conceded the game) is awarded TDs until there is a two TD margin over the conceding player. No score adjustment is made where the non-conceding team already leads by a margin of two TDs or more. No SPPs are awarded for these free TDs.

Example 1: Dwarfs are beating Elves 3-0 when Elves concede; the Dwarfs are awarded win with a Dwarfs 3 - 0 Elves result.
Example 2: Dwarfs are losing 1-4 when Elves concede; the Dwarfs are awarded TDs until they hold a 2TD margin over the Elves; a score of Dwarfs 6-4 Elves is recorded for the game.

[Darkson]

AND Yes, this does present the situation where if a team went quickly 2-0 up and then the opposition pounded them into the ground and went in for a 2-1 then the game could be legitematley called by the team with two players and still win. The Mmoral of that story is makes sure he can set up 3 players for the next drive.

No.

conceded past participle, past tense of con·cede (Verb)
Verb
Admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting it.
Admit (defeat) in a contest: "he conceded defeat".

[Bakunin]

The rules on p.15 of the CRP (p.11 of the PDF) apply if you concede using the basic rules i.e. not the league rules. P.29 (p.25 of the PDF) says you don't suffer "additional" penalties if you concede for 2 or less, then lists the additional penalties if you concede for any other reason.
However, the specific rules for MVP (p.26 CRP, p.22 PDF) and winnings (p.29 CRP, p.25 PDF) state they are lost if one team concedes.

The CRP actually says... "A coach that concedes (see page 15) before setting up for a kick-off where he could only field 2 or less player suffers no additional penalties. If one coach concedes the match for any other reason then the winner gains all of the loser's winnings and MVP for this match.

I think the text under MVP and Winnings is a reminder for the general run of the mill 'toys out the pram' concession not the smashed to a pulp concession which is a exception.

Personally (and as BUBBA's current commish) I think that if you get to the situation described where after KO's rolls the player only has 2 players available and he concedes it should just be treated as if the clock had run out. So score stays as it is, loser gets his MVP and winnings.

AND Yes, this does present the situation where if a team went quickly 2-0 up and then the opposition pounded them into the ground and went in for a 2-1 then the game could be legitematley called by the team with two players and still win. The Mmoral of that story is makes sure he can set up 3 players for the next drive.

I wonder if he's confusing the bonus TDs awarded when the opposing player can't set anyone up?

+1

I agree with you up until the "YES". But, if you make a concession - that means you lose (in some way: 0-2 or 2-4). Everything else would be a scam for the bash coach..

[Loki]

AND Yes, this does present the situation where if a team went quickly 2-0 up and then the opposition pounded them into the ground and went in for a 2-1 then the game could be legitematley called by the team with two players and still win. The Mmoral of that story is makes sure he can set up 3 players for the next drive.

No.

conceded past participle, past tense of con·cede (Verb)
Verb
Admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting it.
Admit (defeat) in a contest: "he conceded defeat".

Yep Darkson is right, I am going to stop, talking and start thinking. Yep, a concede is a defeat and I agree that it is not clear if it become 1-0, 2-0, 1 or 2> than opponents score.

Even I can't believe what I wrote! What a nugget.

YOU CONCEDE, YOU LOSE