Frenzy: why the bothdown mechanic?

[fidius]

Question to be answered from the game designer's point of view: Why does Frenzy only work on a pushback? That it should work on a Push-StandFirm but not on a BothDown seems a bit contradictory to me from a fluff perspective.

My guess is that JJ was trying to limit its effectiveness. But does it need to be limited?

[Regash]

I think so, yes.
Otherwise it would grant two blocks to each player with that skill, almost no matter what.
That would throw teams pretty fast off balance.

I think it makes perfect sense the way it is.
First of all, it doesn't get to powerfull a skill.
Second, you have to think about how and when to block with a frenzy player.
A pushback means you HAVE TO follow up and you HAVE TO throw a second block.
Under certain circumstances, this might bring you into a not so comfortable second block situation.

[Pedda]

Also, it might get weird when you regard wrestle in the mix?
Does the frenzy player make his/hers second block on the ground?

[lunchmoney]

Also, it might get weird when you regard wrestle in the mix?
Does the frenzy player make his/hers second block on the ground?

That one isnt likely...

Frenzy (General)
A player with this skill is a slavering psychopath who attacks his
opponents in an uncontrollable rage. Unless otherwise overridden, this
skill must always be used. When making a block, a player with this skill
must always follow up if he can. If a 'Pushed' or 'Defender Stumbles'
result was chosen, the player must immediately throw a second block
against the same opponent so long as they are both still standing and
adjacent. If possible, the player must also follow up this second block. If
the frenzied player is performing a Blitz Action then he must pay a
square of Movement and must make the second block unless he has no
further normal movement and cannot Go For It again.

My highlight.

[Pedda]

Also, it might get weird when you regard wrestle in the mix?
Does the frenzy player make his/hers second block on the ground?

That one isnt likely...

Frenzy (General)
A player with this skill is a slavering psychopath who attacks his
opponents in an uncontrollable rage. Unless otherwise overridden, this
skill must always be used. When making a block, a player with this skill
must always follow up if he can. If a 'Pushed' or 'Defender Stumbles'
result was chosen, the player must immediately throw a second block
against the same opponent so long as they are both still standing and
adjacent. If possible, the player must also follow up this second block. If
the frenzied player is performing a Blitz Action then he must pay a
square of Movement and must make the second block unless he has no
further normal movement and cannot Go For It again.

My highlight.

Thanks. I should have checked before speaking

Btw, I think it's quite fitting that the frenzy player doesn't get a second block after a both down result. The frenzy player is stunned by the resistance from the defending player. In the case of stand firm, that player is just hard to move and doesn't stop the tenacity of the frenzy player.

[Itchen Masack]

I like the fact that Frenzy is uncontrollable, that the player must follow up. The possible danger of bad positioning in exchange for a 2nd opportunity of knocking the opponent down. If a Frenzy player was able to take the safety of a Both down (as i cant imagine many frenzy players going without Block for long) and still get a 2nd block, then the skill would become more reliable and more widely used ihmo

[rolo]

... or take Juggernaut and blitz

[darkrock76]

Reading the spirit of frenzy I don't think it makes much sense that the player doesn't get a second block, the two units are still standing next to each other and he has an uncontrollable rage that just disappears because both units used block? If anything that would make the frenzy player even crazier.

Tactically I get it, and prefer it, as the frenzy player has to be much more careful with positioning. I think the way it is now also helps out Juggernaut a bit, as usually you want your frenzy player to get 2 chances to take the opponent down.

[rolo]

I've always thought of the following up and movement as being the defining "idea" behind Frenzy. I picture blocking as more or less static, like linemen pass blocking - players essentially pushing each other back and forth, but more or less getting in each other's way and preventing the other from moving:


Whereas I've pictured Frenzy as more dynamic, like Rob Gronkowski crowdsurfing Sergio Brown here aka "Throwing him out of the club":


So when a Frenzy player rolls "both down", he still wants to keep moving and blocking, but doesn't have the momentum. He winds up just being a normal blocking lineman.

(Also I don't think that Stand Firm was really considered when the exact wording of Frenzy was originally written. I suspect it's just an accident that a Frenzy player gets a second block against a Stand Firm target).

[Darkson]

No accident, members of the BBRC confirmed.

[Aliboon]

Waaaay back when this edition off BB was first released frenzy used to allow as many blocks as they had movement (so a bothdown was needed to stop it somehow), I think stand firm stopped it too, or at least that was the interpretation we used to play, although some of the wording wasn't very clear back then iirc (SF also allowed risk free dodging!).

[CyberedElf]

My fluff argument:
Both Down the Frenzy player would be knocked down if not for the Block skill. I think of it analogous to Defender Stumbles and Dodge. In Both Down the attacker is stumbling. He is skilled and does not get knocked over, but the effort to stay standing prevents the second block.
Hence, Pushed with Stand Firm the Frenzy player is still capable of blocking. He is not recovering, so to speak.

[Dr. Von Richten]

Waaaay back when this edition off BB was first released frenzy used to allow as many blocks as they had movement (so a bothdown was needed to stop it somehow), I think stand firm stopped it too, or at least that was the interpretation we used to play, although some of the wording wasn't very clear back then iirc (SF also allowed risk free dodging!).

This was awesome!

Crowdsurfing someone from the center of the pitch with your Witch elf (or Trollslayer) was brilliant! And totally overpowered, but the entire game was badly balanced then, and we still had fun!

[JaM]

Yeah, minos and ratogres were really bad then... Lost games because of them.
Won a few too, PO +1 STR Claws/fangs MB Mino.... like! That's a +6 at least on 2d6 to go through your armour. That'll do. Even if he has to move first...