Frenzy, Strip Ball and picking it up.

[lunchmoney]

A question from a local player of mine and it got me thinking.

His question, "Strip ball and frenzy is it a failed catch or pick up when you follow up after stripping the ball and the balls in the square you have to follow up into."

My answer:
That comes down to the order everything is applied:
Attacker chooses push;
Defender is pushed back and the ball drops and bounces one square from where the defender is now.
Attacker follows up.
If the ball dropped to the square the attacker is now in, he must attempt to pick it up.
It can never be a catch as the ball is dropped before the attacker follows up.

At least that’s how I read it.


As an additional Q, if the pick up then fails (triggering a turnover) does the attacker get his second block? I think not.

[RoterSternHochdahl]

Havent had a look at the rulebook. However, if we agree that the ball bounces AFTER following up in case the defender goes down it should be the same with Strip Ball. In this case, the bouncing ball results in a catch, not a pick-up and no turnover will result from a fail.

[Darkson]

I'm pretty certain that (in any block) it's follow up then scatter (don't have rules near me to confirm though).

[Twelfman]

I'd agree, I'd say the ball is knocked loose after the follow up. Because IIRC you apply armour and injury etc before bouncing the ball, so it makes sense that you'd follow up before bouncing the ball too.

[lunchmoney]

I've got the book in front of me.

Page 10, The Result (of the block dice):
PUSHED: The defending player is pushed back
one square by the blocking player. The attacking
player may follow up the defender.

Page 67, Strip Ball:
When a player with this skill blocks an opponent with the ball, applying a
"Pushed" or "Defender Stumbles" result will cause the opposing player to
drop the ball in the square that they are pushed to, even if the opposing
player is not Knocked Down.

The ball dropping is part of the push back (the first sentence on the Pushed Result) and the follow up is a separate sentence. Therefore the Strip Ball will be part of the first condition (the push back) and should be resolved before the second part (the follow up) is carried out.

[mawph]

A "follow up move" occurs before any dice are rolled. Therefore the ball has not yet bounced free when the required follow up move occurs.

As the ball is then a bouncing ball, should the frenzy player not grab it, there's no turnover.

Edit: Its on page 10, after the bit you've quoted (far bottom right). You've looked everywhere in the book except the obvious spot

[Pluisje]

Icepelt pagenumbers:

TURNOVERS (p. 7)
...
2. A passed ball, or hand-off, is not caught by any member of the
moving team before the ball comes to rest or
3. A player from the moving team attempts to pick up the ball
and fails (note: failing a catch roll, as opposed to a pick up, is by
itself never a turnover)
...

BOUNCING BALLS (p. 13)
If the ball is dropped ... then it will bounce.
If the ball bounces into an occupied square, then the player in the square must attempt to catch it, as
described above.

So it's a bouncing ball, not a pass or a hand-off and it is a catch, not a pick-up. No turnover.

[mawph]

So it's a bouncing ball, not a pass or a hand-off and it is a catch, not a pick-up. No turnover.

The argument being used above (which I'm saying is incorrect due to the sequence of required events) is that the ball has already bounced and come to a standstill on the ground in the spot that the frenzy player will move into with his follow up move. If that were the case, then it would be a failure to pick up a ball, not catching a bouncing ball, and hence why the initial thought was a turnover.

As the follow up move must happen before the ball comes free, you are correct and it is a bouncing ball, so a failure is not a turnover.

[Darkson]

To back-up what mawph has said:

LRB6 P.10 Follow-up Moves: "The player’s coach must decide whether to follow up before any other dice rolls are made."

LRB6 P.11 Knock Downs: "If a player carrying the ball is Knocked Down or Placed Prone, he will drop the ball in the square where he falls. The dropped ball will bounce one square in a random direction (see Bouncing Balls, page 13) after the player’s armour and injury rolls (if any) are fully resolved."

If you have to decide to follow-up before rolling any dice, and the ball only drops after the AV roll (a dice roll) it follows that the ball will scatter after the follow-up which means it's a catch roll so no turnover. And of course, even without a KD, a scatter is still a dice roll, so therefore must be after the follow-up.

[nazgob]

My view agrees - no turnover. The logic is this: if a player without either skill knocked a player down, followed up and failed the catch/pick up, there is no turnover.

Purely on that, i'd want to apply the same logic to frenzy/strip ball.

That said the learned gentlemen above have clearly found sources for their argument, while i have gone on a hunch!

[Loki]

To back-up what mawph has said:

LRB6 P.10 Follow-up Moves: "The player’s coach must decide whether to follow up before any other dice rolls are made."

LRB6 P.11 Knock Downs: "If a player carrying the ball is Knocked Down or Placed Prone, he will drop the ball in the square where he falls. The dropped ball will bounce one square in a random direction (see Bouncing Balls, page 13) after the player’s armour and injury rolls (if any) are fully resolved."

If you have to decide to follow-up before rolling any dice, and the ball only drops after the AV roll (a dice roll) it follows that the ball will scatter after the follow-up which means it's a catch roll so no turnover. And of course, even without a KD, a scatter is still a dice roll, so therefore must be after the follow-up.

+1

[sann0638]

Interesting one. But pretty clear now I think