Throw Teammate Fumble...turnover or no?

Sceadeau · Post by **Sceadeau** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:57 am

A literal reading of the LRB says that if a player falls over for any reason it is a turnover, unless there is a specific rule stating otherwise. A teammate thrown inaccurately has an exception to this rule (and an exception to the exception), but it says nothing specifically about fumbling a thrown teammate. Is there anyplace to find an official ruling on this, or could someone provide me with the answer, and corrosponding rule as to why.

Thanks,

Sceadeau

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:23 am

There is no official answer, but most people rule that this is a turnover.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:29 am

The TTM action counts as a passing-action:

a pass action produces a turnover when

1) the ball is not caught by a player of the moving team

2) if the pass roll is a fumble (1 before or after the roll)

While the first can not be executed with TMM, the second turnover rule is still valid for TTM. If you fumble your pass roll, regardless of pass or TTM, its a turnover.

Sceadeau · Post by **Sceadeau** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:36 am

LRB:

"Fumbles
Sometimes a player attempting to throw the ball will drop it in their own square. This is more likely if the player has any opposing players breathing down his neck! To represent this, if the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, then the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball. The ball will bounce once from the thrower’s square, and the moving team will suffer a turnover and their team turn ends immediately."

This is what it says about turnover regarding a pass action. It doesn't link fumbling the throw with a turnover without going through dropping the ball (which wouldn't happen in a TTM situation).

Would this still be enough to cause a turnover from a thrown teammate, or is it truely just up to league commisioners to figure out what the rules mean?

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:42 am

As Zombie said, there is no official ruling.

My explanation gives you an argument derived from other rules. You can argue that TTM is a pass-action and therefore a fumble causes a turnover (bc you miserably failed in doing it), or you could argue TTM is a pass but without the ball and therefore fumbling without a ball is not a turnover.

Your commis will have to decide, but my opinion is, if you try to throw/pass something (ball or team mate) and you fumble, then its a turnover.

hope that helps

Sceadeau · Post by **Sceadeau** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:45 am

Was specifically asking so that it could be coded properly in Skijunkie's Javabowl...so no, it doesn't help. But thanks regardless

Same reason for asking about the SPP for a COMP...just trying to help get that program as close to TT BB as possible...one rule at a time.

Sceadeau

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:28 pm

i say turnover. seems logical to me.

Hox-ii · Post by **Hox-ii** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:12 pm

If you want it to be coded properly according to the LRB, then no, it doesn't cause a turnover. For it to cause a turnover, the LRB would have to specifically state in the TTM section that a fumbled player causes a turnover; since there is no documentation on it, I believe the official ruling would be that no turnover occurs.

Amon242 · Post by **Amon242** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:19 pm

On a similar note: In a last ditch effort to stop a score, you attempt to throw a gobo without the ball in the hopes of hitting the ball carrier on the scatter. Do you need to declare a blitz for the gobo being thrown in case he happens to land in a empty square that gives him a chance to make a last ditch blitz? Or can you wait and see where he lands before declaring his blitz?

slup · Post by **slup** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:34 pm

Since the player taking an action during a TTM is the thrower (ie. a troll)and not the thrown player (ie. a goblin) you can wait.

BigD · Post by **BigD** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 8:04 am

Personally I'd be saying its a turnover, pure and simple. You blew the pass regardless of what was being thrown so its a turnover. Your troll is effectively treating the player as the ball hence the 'Throw Team Mate' skill in the first place. Otherwise you'll be adding 'Throw Ball' to skills which obviously isn't required.

And no you wouldn't have to declare a blitz. The gobbo is only 'playing ball' and hasn't moved yet. Its the Troll doing the action

BigD

Hox-ii · Post by **Hox-ii** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:11 pm

I understand that the action counts as a pass action. However, the LRB only mentions fumbles of the ball counting as turnovers. It never says that a fumbled player causes a turnover, even in the TTM section. If the LRB does not say that an action causes a turnover, then one doesn't occur.

It is obvious that the TTM action is treated differently than the pass action, even though only one of the two can be done in one turn. An inaccurate pass doesn't cause a turnover, even if the player doesn't land on his feet. Why, then, should a fumbled player cause a turnover?

For the sake of coding the JavaBBowl client, the moving team should not have a turnover occur when a player fumbles a TTM.

Mr-Klipp · Post by **Mr-Klipp** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:10 pm

Personally, I'm a bit up in the air over this. A gobbo does not count as a ball, otherwise skills such as nerves of steel would count, and they do not. That is why the only skills that effect the TTM are those that say they affect a pass action , as opposed to specifying passing the ball. I've read over the turnover section, and the only turnover event that could directly apply to this is the one about a player falling over. The player does fall over on a fumble, and in the turnover section it says that any time a player falls over it is a turnover, however, the confusion comes in a little bit later. It specifically says that a failed landing is *not* a turnover if you do not have the ball. It could be debated around and around if a fumbled player is a failed landing or not, but what it comes down to in my eyes is that this section really isn't completly clear, and an official ruling would be most welcome.

Hox-ii · Post by **Hox-ii** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:48 pm

Definitely an official ruling would be nice on this, but I still am sticking with my point. Also, not all skills that affect passes affect TTM - for example, on page 23 paragraph 3 in the TTM section, "He may try to use the Pro skill, but he may not use Accurate." Accurate, of course, would help lessen the number of fumbled teammates that occur.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:53 pm

There is an official ruling on this. It's on page 8, under turnovers.

"A player from the moving team falls or is knocked over."

If you fumble a throw teammate attempt, the throwee is knocked over in the square they were standing in.

Hence, a turnover. Fumbled passes doesn't even have to come into it.