Rookie Orcs vs. Rookie Dwarfs -- Advice?

[mattgslater]

I been down this road too many times to count, but it always leaves questions in my head. Also, this is a new lineup for me, and I want to be sure I'm doing this right.

I'm a pretty good coach, but somehow I've never figured out how to get through rookie Dwarfs with a rookie Orc team reliably; my Orcs are 3-3 against Dwarfs in leagues, and 1-3 in the first three matches with a new team.

The league is fixed-format, nine matches, and I'll see these guys again in the second half of the season. The rules are a heavily houseruled mishmash of 3rd and 5th ed (we have too many amateur game designers in our league, who are alternately stuck in their ways or eager to experiment with new rules); fouling has been nerfed from a 3rd-ed. standpoint, but will be both more common and more effective than in 5th. Otherwise, I don't think many other rules differences from one edition to another will be big factors in the question at hand. (Dauntless and Frenzy are at their best in these rules, so Slayers are a little better).

My opponent is the only person ever to annihilate one of my teams, but my record against him is 5-2. I've never played his Dwarfs. I assume he'll run 2 Runners and 2 Blitzers, plus at least one Slayer (he has a bashy schedule).

I wanted to run 4x BOB, 4x Blitzer, 2x Thrower, 1x Lino, 1x Apoth (again, better in the old days), 2x Re-roll (5th ed FF rules, 0FF). I really like starting with 2 Throwers; it's just all kinds of fun. However, I could downgrade a BOB and a Thrower to linemen and take another lino, so I get 12 starters; I think that will be more useful against Dwarfs (my next opponent is Humans, then Orcs, and I'm not worried about them). I could also get 2x BOB, 4x Blitzer, 2x Thrower, 2x Lino, 1x Troll (regen is as in 5th), plus the Apo and 2 RRs. I'm allowed an Ogre instead of a Troll for 140k, but the other Orc coach (much less experienced) is running one, so I'm not going to (too bad; Orcs with Ogres are just unfair).

So, the first question is: which of those lines do you like better?

The second question is: How should I set my defense?

Here's what I was thinking:

Z = Blitzer
B = Black Orc
T = Thrower
X = Troll
L = Lino

Code: Select all

First option (4 BOBs, 2 Throwers)
- - - -|- - B L B - -|- - - -
- - - -|B Z - - - Z B|- - - -
- - - Z|- T - - - T -|Z - - -

or should it be like this?
- - - -|- - B L B - -|- - - -
- - - -|B Z - - - Z B|- - - -
- - - -|Z T - - - T Z|- - - -

Is that too Slayer-Paranoid?  Is it a bad idea to cede the wide zones against Dwarfs?  My goal is to force him to stick in along one front, letting me wheel around on the other, but if the ball ends up shallow on his strong side I could be buying a headache.

Second option (3 BOBs, 1 Thrower, 1 reserve)
- - - -|- - B L B - -|- - - -
- - - -|Z Z - B - Z Z|- - - -
- - - -|- L - T - L -|- - - -

Third option (2 BOBs, 2 Throwers, 1 Troll)
- - - -|- - L X L - -|- - - -
- - - -|B Z - - - Z B|- - - -
- - - -|Z - T - T - Z|- - - -

Or should the BOBs be on the interior to make them easier to stick in?  The Blitzer really is less vulnerable to a blitz from a Dwarf team.
- - - -|- - L X L - -|- - - -
- - - -|Z B - - - B Z|- - - -
- - - Z|- T - - - T -|Z - - -

Any glaring problems? WDYT? Orcs need defensive scores to get those vital early improvements. I'm hesitant to put anyone more than 2 squares back for that reason, and I really want to stock up on the line so I can force him to commit to a side or give up the ball, but if I let him cage in my backfield (even if I can easily surround his cage), I may be asking for it.

The third question is: what would you as a Dwarf coach do in setting up a defense against an Orc team?

[Jonny Deth]

Hi there

I have only just started my Orc team and was annilated by some elves (elfs???). With a similiar lineup to the one you suggested.

My advice is to go with 3 BoB and 4 Blitzers and as many rerolls as possible. Go for lineorcs as they make good players to sacrifice...Go for one thrower as that is all you need.

As a dwarf player as well I have never had much trouble with Orcs. I play side positions to blast my way into his half and runners to either pass to the blitzer or run the ball up. I don't bother with blocking or even trying to block the BoB's as this will only end up with a 1 die block and is not worth the risk. Even with Block skill on my Dwarfs. I also let the Orc coach dominate the LoS as it is niegh on impossible to shift those buggers anyway!!!

Way to beat Dwarfs is to play fast and don't leave your players in the Tackle zones...

GOOD LUCK!

[Kheldar]

If the dwarf has a rookie team too, it should be not soo hard to kick him.

My prefered lineup would be. 4BOB 4Blitzer 1Thrower 2Lino 3RR 1FF (or AC,CL, whatever).

This gives you the needed punch, and you have only one player with AV8 in your ranks. Get rid of his slayers soon, and the game is yours.

As for defensive setup:

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B L B - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - -  -  - - -|- - - - 
- -B -| -Z - - - Z -|- B - - 
-Z - -|T - - - - - L | - -Z - 

This way you dont give up the sidelines, but the slayers cant push you out. You are two steps behind the los so a quicksnap wont hurt you, and you have good opportunities to get make pressure when a short kick happens.

I had very good games with this setup against dwarfs in tournaments. and tournaments is all about rookie teams.

[mattgslater]

My prefered lineup would be. 4BOB 4Blitzer 1Thrower 2Lino 3RR 1FF (or AC,CL, whatever).

This gives you the needed punch, and you have only one player with AV8 in your ranks. Get rid of his slayers soon, and the game is yours.

I agree that's s smart set up; 4 BOBs does mean that you have only 7 ball-handlers, but the quantity of +ST players will minimize the impact of his Slayers on my strategy, even as he sees them becoming more effective because of the increased field of targets.

This season, I was thinking I'd build towards a two-Thrower strategy to keep my opponents on their toes; my opponents include a lot of rookies and there is a super-stompy Orc team already and I want to give them a chance to be "the bashiest team" while I'd rather wow them with innovation (what's that saying... "either become a good example or a horrible warning" was it?). Besides, I have Wood Elves coming up in week 2, and I'll have Werewolves to contend with midseason, and I want to be ready for Strip Ball.

The nature of the league (3rd/5th hybrid) is such that an Apothecary is a much better deal than it is in 5th, and it's good to buy RRs after the season begins to lower TR. If I took out a RR and added an Apoth, it saves me one point. Should I use that [EDIT: 6/27] plus the AC/CL/FF point to hire a second Thrower (option A above) or should I go for a tougher lino instead and buy the second Thrower with winnings? I ultimately want a Gobbo and a Troll, but I can buy them later (they're both kind of vulnerable against Dwarfs).

As for defensive setup:

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B L B - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - -  -  - - -|- - - - 
- -B -| -Z - - - Z -|- B - - 
-Z - -|T - - - - - L | - -Z - 

This way you dont give up the sidelines, but the slayers cant push you out. You are two steps behind the los so a quicksnap wont hurt you, and you have good opportunities to get make pressure when a short kick happens.

I had very good games with this setup against dwarfs in tournaments. and tournaments is all about rookie teams.

Hmmm... I'm worried that it'll leave me in a bad position if he doesn't cage up fast enough. I'm not really afraid of Quick Snap (he can only go head-to-head with me if he really commits his whole team, and that's fine by me; I have a ST advantage on him, and that's a big deal even if he does have more Block), but I want to be able to get deep into his backfield. Do you think it's a horrible mistake to step those backers/backs up a square?

As far as the sidelines go, I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, if I cede him the wide zones, he can build a little cage even up to 4 squares deep along the sidelines, and if he has a card he can maybe pull off a one-turn score (it's hard to work against Dwarfs from a deficit), but I don't have anyone strung out on the weakside, so I can stick in with everybody. On the other hand, if I beef up the wide zones, I run the risk of crowd-pushes and I might have guys stuck out in space, but he has to cage up on his own half [EDIT: 6/27] and that might increase my odds of getting the ball away for a 2-to-4-turn defensive score. In that case, I'd probably put Blitzers or Linos in the wide zones, leaving the MA4 guys between the lines where they can be pretty sure of being in range of the action.

[mattgslater]

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B L B - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - -  -  - - -|- - - - 
- -B -| -Z - - - Z -|- B - - 
-Z - -|T - - - - - L | - -Z - 

I have a question about this, Kheldar. Why the staggered guys on the wings? Why not line them up side-by-side, where it's harder to get assists on the forward guy, or put them one-in-front-of-the-other so you can't make a hole?

So, I guess the general questions at this point (to all and sundry) are:

1: Construction -- I think I'm ok there; as much as I'd like to start with a reserve, I'm going 4x BOB, 4x Blitzer, 2x Thrower, 1x Lino, 1x Apoth (in this league; it would otherwise be an extra lino), 2x RR.

2: Defense: Two major questions to all and sundry:
1) Which is better: resistance to Quick Snap or the ability to press an extra square into the offense's backfield?
2) Which is worse: ceding the wide zones to Dwarfs or having key players out of position on the first turn?

3: Offense: How would you set up your Dwarfs if you were going up against an Orc team? He knows I'm going for kinder, gentler Orcs than the other coach, and while my Orcs have dismantled several of his teams in the past, his Skaven just nuked my Pro Elves last week. He's a good coach; he used to be a borderline first-tier coach back in the day, and he moved to another city for awhile and played a lot of BB there before coming back recently, so he's picked up some new strategies -- I still think I'm a better coach and the last game was a fluke (4 casualties in the first 3 turns, including both Catchers; what'cha gonna do?), but I don't know exactly what I'm up against, and I don't like my knowledge of Dwarfs as-is.

[falconeyed]

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B L B - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - -  -  - - -|- - - - 
- -B -| -Z - - - Z -|- B - - 
-Z - -|T - - - - - L | - -Z - 

I have a question about this, Kheldar. Why the staggered guys on the wings? Why not line them up side-by-side, where it's harder to get assists on the forward guy, or put them one-in-front-of-the-other so you can't make a hole?

So, I guess the general questions at this point (to all and sundry) are:

1: Construction -- I think I'm ok there; as much as I'd like to start with a reserve, I'm going 4x BOB, 4x Blitzer, 2x Thrower, 1x Lino, 1x Apoth (in this league; it would otherwise be an extra lino), 2x RR.

2: Defense: Two major questions to all and sundry:
1) Which is better: resistance to Quick Snap or the ability to press an extra square into the offense's backfield?
2) Which is worse: ceding the wide zones to Dwarfs or having key players out of position on the first turn?

3: Offense: How would you set up your Dwarfs if you were going up against an Orc team? He knows I'm going for kinder, gentler Orcs than the other coach, and while my Orcs have dismantled several of his teams in the past, his Skaven just nuked my Pro Elves last week. He's a good coach; he used to be a borderline first-tier coach back in the day, and he moved to another city for awhile and played a lot of BB there before coming back recently, so he's picked up some new strategies -- I still think I'm a better coach and the last game was a fluke (4 casualties in the first 3 turns, including both Catchers; what'cha gonna do?), but I don't know exactly what I'm up against, and I don't like my knowledge of Dwarfs as-is.

Assuming I'm reading you right ...

If you're orcs and your opponent is dwarves, lining up the guys on the wings side by side will just get the Z guys crowd surfed. The dwarf will run one guy up to cancel the blitzer's assist, set a second guy to provide assists on both slayer blocks and then the slayer will frenzy your guy into the crowd, which is what the slayer wants to do.

Setting them up one behind the other will leave a space to blitz and then run the ball carrier through. Might not be that much of an issue on a deep kick, but if it's a short kick, the dwarf could get the ball and set up his cage in your half, which is going to make him move even slower down the pitch (which is in his advantage ... he can spend a couple of turns advancing the cage solely through blocking and not blitzing and moving).

I would also set up to protect against the quick snap. The dwarf wants to be in tackle zones to take away your mobility. Setting up one square away will kill your mobility on a quick snap. I would also cede the wide zone to the dwarves until you can single out the slayers.

Also, the base dwarf game is amazingly boring. If the dwarf coach knows anything, his only AG roll will be to pick up the ball with the sure handed runner. Your orcs have the AV to slow them down. You need to stall his cage as much as possible and force him to get anxious and expose his ball carrier.

[Kheldar]

To not make a huge thread, I am not going to quote all the above.

Black Orks on the wings are set one step to left, so no player can be pushed out in the first turn. Even afterwards it should not be that easy, if you commit some staff over there.

Since most dwarf players will try to go by the sidelines, to use their slayers to their full extend, I would not give them easy access.

The one step back is like falconeyed says to not get marked by a longbeard throug a quick snap. But in the end you could move one space nearer to the los. It would not be such a big problem.

While reading through this forum in the last years, I have seen, that bloodbowl is played very differnet in europe and the US. So tactics that might help in germany, or uk, france, might not help against US opponents.

The lineup with apo and only 2 rerolls is also not that bad, to keep the Teamrating down in long run. I dont know your leage rules to give good information or hints here.

[mattgslater]

So to question #3. My friend will have a rookie Dwarf team. I'm expecting to see two Runners, two Blitzers, one Slayer, six Longbeards an Apothecary and three Re-Rolls. He has maybe the bashiest schedule of any team in the league (4 games against Orcs! plus Undead, Necros, Wood Elves, Pro Elves and Humans), and he may be worried about that enough to trade a re-roll for another Slayer, but I doubt he'd make that deal to start.

If that's what you had, and you were going up against a rookie Orc team that represents your only serious competition in the division, how might you line up your Dwarfs on the first drive if you kick? I know my opponent might not do exactly what you do; that's fine. I don't mind having to think my way around several theoretical defenses, knowing that none of them will represent the actual defense, as it'll help me get a better understanding of the situation and see what I'm not seeing about getting the better of the Dwarf defense with rookie Orcs (if I can kick to him I'm fine; I'm worried about receiving and making my way through that D without an edge in speed).

[prisma]

While reading through this forum in the last years, I have seen, that bloodbowl is played very differnet in europe and the US. So tactics that might help in germany, or uk, france, might not help against US opponents.

Hi Kheldar,

I find this very interesting. "Cultural differences in bloodbowl strategies" - WOW !
Which differences have you noticed ?
I mean, how exactly does the strategy of the german players differ from the british or the US-american ?
I' m really curious now...