Experiments in Skaven team development

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:09 pm

I'm feeling a bit nonstandard about my current Skaven team development, but I thought I'd get some opinions anyways.

Local league, real players, all club members and friends of mine. Open league, LRB5 rules, free fan factor. Skaven team is my 2nd team in the league, started because my Dark Elf team rating was starting to skyrocket and I wanted a team that was more comparable with the competition.

Sidenote: I think the free fan factor rule for the league was a mistake and will suggest the Commish revisit this decision for next season. How this gets retconned will be his decision. The tier-3 teams do much better if they can buy up some FF so their intial games, even if they lose, can get them some better cash. Keeps them more competetive while they're building. And developed teams that win a lot gain FF, win FAME, earn more cash, build faster, but have no penalty for having double-digit FF.

'Nuf about free FF.

Starting team:
6 Line rats
2 Runners
2 Blitzers
1 Thrower
4 Rerolls
1 Apothecary

Starting logic: With AV7, the linerats are doomed. I plan to bury, fire, or sickleave one per game until the team gets some development on it. Thats what Journeymen are for. My 11-man Skaven logic depends on Journeymen. I'll lose Linerats, but hopefully preserve the few positionals with rerolls and the apothecary. I'll concentrate on scoring, developing the positionals, and once I have some cash I'll start hiring up replacements for the casualties. Since I don't plan to ever use a reroll (or an Apo) on a unskilled Lineman, replacing them with Journeymen is no loss at all to me.

First game: against a developing 'Zon team. I put all my inducement cash into cards, drew an Orcidas Sponsorship, and blew out the score 5-2 thanks to my ability to 1TS with a Runner. When he wasn't lining up to score, he was hiding from the 'Zons. A streak of TDs allowed both Runners to skill, and I gave them Block. The 'Zon fury killed one Linerat and at one point left me with only 4 players on the pitch. I definately lost the CAS battle, but the only long-term injury was the death.

After 1 game:
5 Linerats
2 Runners w/ Block
2 Blitzers
1 Thrower
4 Rerolls
1 Apo
6 FF
$70K

Second game: I lined up a double-header against a developed TV136 Orc team with 4 Blobs and 4 Blitzers, but a reputation as primarily a throwing game with his 2x Pass/SH/Accurate/NOS throwers. Sounds like fun. I'd neglected to pick up the Journeyman Linerat after the first game, hoping to conserve TV for inducements, and this paid off with 360K to spend. I picked up Headsplitter because I thought that a little beef would be useful with all those Blobs. With Headsplitter, I'm back to 11 players.

Mark took Headsplitter as bait, and for most of the game at least 4-6 players were tied up dealing with the big Rat. I'd have a couple Linerats in on the action to keep the big guy from getting ganged up on too bad. It took until T4 of the second half for the Orcs to finally get rid of the Rat Ogre, but that was the first Orc TD of the game. I recieved with only 5 players on the pitch, scored immediately, and then basically stayed out of the way of Mark's hurry-up attempt to make the final 3-2. I lost the CAS battle, but won the war: one linerat MNG, compared to a 2-skill Orc Blitzer earning -AV. Skill on a Linerat = Block. I picked up a Journeyman linerat for next game, hoping to pick up a Star or Merc to bring me back to 11.

Third game: second half of the double header. Mark was giving up less on inducements, so I put everything into a Merc Rat Ogre. I've seen what Headsplitter can do, so lets experiment with a bog standard rookie Rat Ogre. Oddly enough, this attracted even more attention from Mark, and from the start of this game it was clear that Mark's dice were out to get him. Of course the Pouring Rain didn't help. He elected to recieve. Then fumbled the ball in his own endzone. Easy Skaven score. Repeat that a couple times and you have the whole first half in a nutshell. Orcs didn't score until the middle of the second half, and then only after almost wiping the table of Skaven. Final score: 5-1. Again, lost the CAS battle but this time nobody had worse than BH thanks to the Apo.

Haven't played since Saturday. Hired a couple players, rolled a lot of lucky skills. Here's how things stand:
4 Linerats
1 Linerat w/ Block
1 Linerat (new hire)
1 Runner (new hire)
1 Runner w/ Block, <doubles = Disturbing Presence>
1 Runner w/ Block, +AG
1 Thrower w/ +AG
1 Blitzer w/ <skill = Mighty Blow>
1 Blitzer
4 Rerolls
1 Apo
8 FF
$100K

New skills: MB on the Blitzer, and Disturbing Presence on the Runner.

I was looking at Disturbing Presence, Dump Off, and Two Heads on the Runner. I had originally been considering Dauntless on him, and Horns would be a nice combo with Dauntless, but I wanted to do something different. It occurs to me that Disturbing Presence and Pass Block would be extraordinarily annoying. Such a player could really make a mess of passing plays, and at 25SPP he's poised to get his 3rd skill potentially after one more game. If I hadn't rolled +AG on both a Runner and a Thrower, I might have considered Dump Off for a doubles roll. But Dump Off stacks best with NOS. Nah, I'll save that option for the AG5 Runner or maybe as on the Thrower after he gets Dodge.

Skill development plan:
Linerats: I want 2x Block, 2x Wrestle, and 2x Tackle. Somehow. One Linerat has 5SPP (MVP), so hopefully he'll skill up next. Kick? Maybe. Doubles = Guard
AG5 Runner: Leap, Side Step, doubles = Dump Off
AG4 Runner: Pass Block, Side Step, doubles = VLL
AG4 Thrower: Accurate, Dodge, doubles = Big Hands
Blitzers: Mighty Blow, Piling On, doubles = Claw

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:11 am

Horns and Dauntless isn't a very good combo on a Gutter Runner. The Horns bonus is added before Dauntless. With Horns he'd be ST3 on a blitz anyway, so the combo would only be effective against ST4 ball carriers. Take Strip Ball. I'd imagine there'd be more ball carriers without Sure Hands than those with ST4.

Second, Dump Off is a passing skill anyway, so the Thrower can get it anyway. I don't think Dump Off is a very good skill for skaven, especially for GR's, as their speed allows them to be pretty much free of blitzes on the ball carrier anyway. They'll be either far away or in the end zone. I'd consider Extra Arms or Big Hand for the thrower on doubles. AG4 gives him the reliable dodging needed for picking up any stray balls left on the ground.

I like the idea of a Disturbing Presence Pass Block Gutter Runner. I wouldn't construct one myself, but I got the feeling that you want to try something special.

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:16 pm

At low TV, Leap on the GR with block is excellent. Failing that, go with Dauntless. It's not as nifty as DP, but landing a st3 block in your opponent's side of the pitch will decide most games in your favour.

Also, I tried the 11 man logic and found that there just aren't enough line rats that way. Even with a ton of success, you'll be putting positionals on the line by the second half. You've already got 3 GRs for now, so buy atleast 1 line rat per game until you're at 14 players. I'd even forego the ROgre in favour of 3xLinerats if you're able to develop your GR's into good cage breakers.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:23 pm

Yes, meant "Big Hands" not "Dump Off" as a potential Doubles skill for the Thrower (fixed). I love the Big Hands Thrower mini and have him painted and ready as "Thrower #2" for the core 16-model team.

Currently sitting @ 6-Linerats, 3-Runners, 2-Blitzers, 1-Thrower for 12 models, and the cash to buy another 1-2 right now. I feel inclined to hold onto the cash for now. Adding the players also adds to TV, and sitting @ 127 I can still count on some Inducement cash against most opponents. Perhaps even enough for a low-budget Star, and definately enough for Babes. But mostly I'm inclined to sit on the 100K because I like to keep about a 100K cushion in the bank for any team.

JaM · Post by **JaM** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:04 pm

I've always had a lot of fun with Throwers with block as a first skill. you have the movement, you have the SH + P... toss the ball and use it as a blocker/safety. Just to let you know.

In tournament play, Strip ball is excellent for GR. Im league I always try to make 1-2 OTT, and 1-2 "nasties" with leap, strip ball, pass block, VLL, stuff like that.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:30 pm

Sure, Block is always good on a Thrower. Typically, and Skaven are not an exception to this, the Thrower is just "Lineman with skills". Sure, they're nice skills. But they're discount priced. Skaven Thrower has the mobility to get into places and be a good ball retriever. Believe me, if I hadn't picked up +AG on his first skill roll, I'd have considered Block straight off.

As it is, with +AG, this guy is aiming to be a star ballchucker. But it does kinda depend on whether I give him Accurate next, or Dodge next. With AG4, Dodge does double-duty at keeping him upright (like Block) and also keeping him mobile. So I consider Dodge more useful than Block for him. AG3? Block.

Big Hand next? Dodge and then Nerves of Steel or Dump Off comes to mind.
Dodge next? Well, I want dodge as one of his next 2 skills regardless so this doesn't change my build plan.
Accurate next? Then I want to use any Doubles roll to get Strong Arm.

So it comes down to this choice:
AG4, Dodge, Big Hand, NOS, Dump Off
AG4, Accurate, Strong Arm, Safe Throw, Dodge

The common thread in both cases is Dodge.

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:23 am

Did the thrower skill up and you rolled doubles? If he did, then I agree that Dodge would be a good choice. Better than Big Hand as he already picks up on 2+ and you've said you want to use him as a quarterback; giving him Big Hand goes against that as it'll get most use when he's in dangerous areas, i.e. tackle zones. Likewise, Dump Off and NOS don't really sound like ballchucker skills, they're runner skills for Dark Elves and will only be useful if you put this guy in harm's way. I'd get second thrower and develop him like that.

Assuming all his future rolls are normal skills, I'd go Accurate, Block and Safe Throw. He'll be a great thrower and have some protection. I could also see Fend in there as more protection.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:32 pm

Master Wang wrote:Did the thrower skill up and you rolled doubles?

He got his first 6 SPP in the 3rd game, skilled up for the first time, and rolled an '11'. He kept the +AG, natch.

If I do get doubles on the Thrower, I was seriously thinking Big Hand. But with +AG he is already picking up the ball on a 2+ (with Sure Hands), so ignoring modifiers for tackle zones and rain doesn't seem so hot. So I'm leaning towards agreeing with you that if he gets a double it should be Dodge. Or perhaps Strong Arm. Building him as a long bomb thrower seems like the best route for him, because its not like I really need another AG4 guy for running TDs. Thats what the Gutter Runners are for.

Mmm... Fend... hadn't thought about that. Thats great on a Thrower.

grampyseer · Post by **grampyseer** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:52 pm

With the AG + thrower you'll have HUGE options while playing the ball. I'd be concentrating on passing skills to get to that 3+ longbomb. a little block might help him survive.

The ability to switch from an elfy-passing game, back to a running game is going to give you AMAZING offensive capability.

I tend to build a GR as an interference specialist...I think pass block, disturbing presence, (or even catch) can make an interesting player.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:15 pm

Block over Fend.

At AG4, I'd definitely go for Dodge on doubles. Accurate is a good choice for a normal skill, as it makes even a Long Bomb a 5/8 proposition (assuming a non-Catch GR). Block after, as that guy is too good to leave without Block at 31 SPP. Or maybe Block next. He'll get stuck in sometimes no matter what you do.

I think Big Hand is good on D; if your oppo covers the ball with three guys and you use a blitz so you can get there without a dodge, you can just waltz up there (maybe a dodge into the clear...), grab the ball, dodge back into the clear, and chuck. A GR can do that too. For this reason it makes a good initial doubles selection, or a follow-up to Leap and VLL. I wouldn't take it on the +AG GR. If you do take it on the Thrower, it makes Nerves of Steel a fun proposition (same with Two Heads). I'd still consider Dodge first, though. You have lots of Dodge, so it's at peak value against non-Dwarfy teams.

I'd save 100k too, but if I had 150 I'd buy another player (lino or GR). Assuming you have an Apothecary. Maybe I was just reading too fast and missed it. Apoth is job 1 for this team; used to stop just the first random cas that comes in, he's almost as good as two Babes, not counting any long-term benefit, and most people think that's not the optimal strategy, so he's better than that.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:04 am

I would also consider Safe Throw for a Skaven Thrower. Especially if you throw alot of Long Bombs, or like to lob the ball over opposing players in a cheeky fashion.

A godlike throwing pairing would probably look like this:

AG4 Thrower w/ Accurate, Safe Throw, Strong Arm
Gutter Runner - Catch, Nerves of Steel

You could get the ball from one end of the pitch to the other with no trouble at all. And even if the Gutter Runner is man-marked, you'll still be catching on rerollable 2's.

Very tasty, in my view.

~Andromidius

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:17 pm

Strong Arm on an AG4 Skaven thrower seems a bit like overkill, although it would make for a very reliable offence. Marking GR's would no longer be enough, as you could run them into the end zone before passing.

What I'm trying to say really is that Dodge as a doubles skill would most certainly be better for this guy than either Strong Arm or Big Hand. Dodge would mean that many times he could dodge out of any TZ's he's in to make the pass. Given his mobility this would almost always mean that he could run closer to the target (simulating Strong Arm). The enemy Tacklers will most likely be marking the GR's anyway. Skaven skills should concentrate on the defence, not offence (into which I rate Strong Arm). So, first double would be Dodge and the second could be Big Hand. First normal skill I'd take Accurate followed by Block. Then perhaps Safe Throw.

He'll probably die soon anyway so this is all a bit theoretical.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:09 pm

My new Gutter Runner will be developed with NOS in mind.

The AG5 GR doesn't really need either NOS or Catch, but Leap would be awesome, and I would seriously consider Dump Off on him on Doubles, as he could reliably get rid of the ball on a 2+ (including the tackle zone of the guy trying to block him).

The Disturbing Presence GR is going to be developed as an interference/interception player. Pass Block should be next. Catch would also be nice, as would VLL, but probably not in the cards. With DP/PB his role would be more of that of a free safety than a catcher.

The rookie GR, either this one or the next one I hire, needs NOS. I do want a Catch/NOS GR in the mix, but don't need more than one. The rookie will get Catch on a normal roll and NOS on doubles, but it is likely that he'll develop without seeing a doubles roll at all. In which case Diving Catch might be a nice alternative.

The AG4 Thrower would be great with both Accurate and Safe Throw. Given the cheeky way that I often need to make passes, both skills are of almost equal weight although Accurate probably takes precedence. I'd love Strong Arm, but I agree that Dodge is more important. Its something to weigh out though. Dodge allows me more mobility and makes it easier to keep him closer to his targets. He won't need to make as many Long Bomb passes if he can dance around before throwing and stay upright more often if hit (perish the thought!). But Strong Arm, coupled with Accurate and Safe Throw, makes it easy for him to throw Bombs. Combined with his speed, this allows him to hang back out of range of threats and still hit competions for TDs. His MA7, GR MA8, and the full length of the pass ruler is almost the full length of the field with little risk of interception. Reliable Bombs also means easier diagonal pass plays.