6+4 on a Pro Elf lino (edited the title)

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Carnis
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Post by Carnis »

If it's a low TR league, dodge is likely a better choice (you're gonna be low on RR's & they are gonna be low on block-skills). If its a developed one, then get block as else they will tackle you.

MA is a total waste when even with 2 MA's you'll be as fast as your catchers, which you can btw get 4 of and start with 2 skills (one a double for 10k!) over the liners.

A lino with +2 MA would be 8-3-4-7 & 120k, costing more than the catcher.

Finally I would seriously consider +AV (& fend as 2nd skill). This would instantly lower your maximum LOS losses from 58%/knockdown (no skill & av7 vs mb/piling on opponent) to 44%/knockdown (no skill&mb/piling on) with wrestle/fend down to 22% (mb, but no piling on & AV8).

He'd be 6348 Wrestle/Fend/Dodge 150k (theoretically, if he survived that long).

It might be too expensive though as it's not exactly a treeman! Have never played PEs, just faced them..

But no matter what you do, don't take the MA :P, imho.

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mattgslater
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Post by mattgslater »

Here's something else to chew on: do your LBs get put one square back or two?

Starting two squares back makes it hard to protect Broadway, as if your opponent can secure the ball in the cage, he can also knock your line off to the weakside, shove aside your inside backer, and camp out in a nice easy position to grind his way to the end zone in 5-8 turns (mostly his choice) most of the time. Or he can camp out one square inside on one side, maintaining lots of tackle zones along the front and outside of the cage as he beats his way in: with enough ST4 and AV9/Block floating around, he can feel relatively safe doing so, even. It also means you have a harder time turning the two-turn score, as your guys have an extra square to travel, which translates to a GFI (except for the catchers). With your MA8 Catchers this isn't horrible, but it's hardly optimal, as it means you'll be hesitant to run your linos in on turn 2 of the drive, and that comes with costs both on field and off, as they get fewer SPP. This really makes a difference when a Blitz is rolled (1/12 kickoffs).

On the other hand, starting one square back opens you to calamity on the 1/9 shot at a Quick Snap, but that doesn't matter much (even when a QS happens, Nuffle has a way of punishing teams for relying on the kickoff table). What does matter is that it also leaves you open to the "Quick Snap Simulator" called Grab... unless you have Side Step (or a reasonable facsimile, like Stand Firm or maybe Fend). Otherwise, the "center" (lined up opposite your noseguard) will block your strong-side end, pushing laterally (along the LOS) and following. The next guy over on the weak-side will hit your noseguard with the Grab skill, trying to just push. If he KDs, he pulls the guy over to the weakside, where he's out of the way, and doesn't follow. If he does just push (56%), he pushes him down to the hole in the O-line where the center had been, following. There, an offensive player is waiting behind the Grab guy's starting spot to push him into an O-lineman on the other side of the victim, who gets pushed across the LOS. Now there's an offensive player who has not used an action with a zone on your linebacker (read: kicker), ready to hit him without blitzing, likely KD'ing and following, thus opening up an assist on a blitz against your safety (read: high-powered Catcher). Even without KD, none of this offense presumes the opponent has dedicated even a single instance of Guard, so this guy could easily have Guard. If he pushes your backer, he can follow and assist the blitz anyway.

Side Step lets you have the tight line discipline of setting up one back without allowing the silly gimmicks.

Moreover, SS opens up chain-pushes on offense. Run an SS guy up so that when he gets pushed it'll open up a chain-push on your turn, and your opponent will have a hell of a time figuring out exactly who can get how many squares when (downside: so will you).

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Joemanji
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Post by Joemanji »

I don't have a clue what you are talking about, other than you don't play past the initial setup. :wink:

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mattgslater
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Post by mattgslater »

The first turn matters most. It's not all that matters. It's just what matters most. If your opponent uses the first turn to set the theme of the drive, that's bad. If you do, that's good. If your opponent gets you down to 9 men on turn one of the game 'cause he snuck in an extra block, or locks the ball away in a midfield cage so that he can grind it out and score on turn 8, you're probably going to lose. Sure, you can try to break the cage after your opponent has built it on his terms, but when cage breaking goes wrong is when elf teams get killed. It's much easier to dictate the circumstances and then play to them, and Turn 1 is the best time to do that. Side Step is the best skill of all on Turn 1 of any given drive. Does that make it the best skill of all? No. But it does put it in the running. When given that it's great on Turn 2 and Turn 3 and Turn 7... so much the better. And like all positioning skills, multiple instances of SS build on each other.

Want to see SS work on Turn 2? Great. Get 3 Linos and 2 Blitzers with SS, and stick them all within one square of the LOS, and if the ball doesn't go deep or get caged away on Turn 1, you've always got an SS TZ on it. Frequently, you've got 2.

How about on offense? Blow a hole along the sideline and run 3 guys in: 1 is a Catcher who just screams "cover me!" But the other two are a Blitzer and an SS lino. Ain't no coverin' the Catcher without Leap, and then you're talking about either 1d or multiple Leapers if you want to blitz. That Catcher only needs to be 3 squares deep; he's spectacularly easy to protect if your blockers can't be pushed away.

Late-turn usage? Pin a guy down along the sidelines with a SS/Fend guy, and he'll be stuck there until you get bored or decide your player is more useful... or your guy gets hurt. Clog up the front of a cage: any block that doesn't kd puts your man on the ball-carrier, and any block that does goes exactly where he doesn't want it to go. A stopped clock is right twice a day, and a stunned lino can still clog a lane... with Side Step.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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JaM
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Post by JaM »

Putting only 1 square between my players and my opponents doesnt sit well with me... but maybe it's time to just try things differently.

Matt; looks like you've really thought the game trough... sometimes I think there's not a lot more to it than nicely painted figures, a field and a load of dice ! :D

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DoubleSkulls
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Post by DoubleSkulls »

mattgslater wrote:But if you get hit by a guy without Block, Block is all-but worthless. On the D-line, the oppo gets to choose who to hit you with. Moreover, Block gives you no control over the flow of the action.

Generally, I agree that Block is better than SS. But a PE team starts with 40% of the ultracool mass-SS thing, so building to get to 100% of the combo gimmick quickly has a big value.
On the LOS you'll normally be hit by block players (or wrestle players) just because of the turnover avoidance rule.

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

mattgslater wrote:If your opponent gets ... locks the ball away in a midfield cage so that he can grind it out and score on turn 8, you're probably going to lose.
In my experience LOS defensive setups have very little to do with this though. Generally cages form either just behind the LOS or somewhere in the middle of the receiving team's half.

As the kicking team all you can do is get the kick skill and place the ball to making cage set up harder.

A lot of BB is about cage & anti-cage tactics. Sidestep is a very good skill for this en-mass, but its hardly the only option available to teams and often just having more players on the pitch and forming a double layered defence is all that you really need to do. Sidestep (SF & fend too) are an enhancement of that allowing you to slow the cage more easily and with fewer players.

I'd also say that in many drives the most important turn is the last one ;)

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mattgslater
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Post by mattgslater »

ianwilliams wrote:On the LOS you'll normally be hit by block players (or wrestle players) just because of the turnover avoidance rule.
Yeah. That's true. But there are times when your opponent would prefer to game the other way, say with a slough of TRRs and a skilly ball-handler: on turn 1 of the drive, they can often afford to risk a RR blocking on the line with 8/9 odds.
As the kicking team all you can do is get the kick skill and place the ball to making cage set up harder.
Not true at all. You can push the opponent one way or another, you can increase the odds of generating/converting a quick recovery TD, and you can set a forward limit to the cage's starting point. On Turn 1 of the half the latter doesn't matter as much, but if your offense (or defense) scores in turn 3, your opponent only has six turns.
I'd also say that in many drives the most important turn is the last one ;)
Very pithy.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Post by PubBowler »

Joemanji wrote:I don't have a clue what you are talking about, other than you don't play past the initial setup. :wink:
QFT

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mattgslater
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Post by mattgslater »

General principle: Pro Elves, like other high-move, high price AV7 teams, don't want long drives. The best way to stop a drive from getting long is to score. That means penetrating the opposing backfield. MA6 and MA7 players are just barely fast enough to score in two turns from the backfield, meaning that to turn the game over in two turns, you have to either hand over your SPP to your fastest-skilling guy, or you have to consider GFIs, avoiding them or coping with them.

One way to avoid a GFI is to start one square farther forward than you normally would, one square back of scrimmage rather than two, so a MA7 player doesn't have to GFI to score, and an MA6 player can still score in two turns without GFI'ing in the first turn (you know, when you don't know if it'll matter and you'd rather not make an extraneous d6 roll). I've found that Quick Snap doesn't make a very effective deterrent, but chain-pushing does. Here's how.

This diagram is the interior of my "inverted" defense, but any defense where the inside LBs are placed one square behind LOS would serve as an example. Offense = letters, defense = numbers. O players in caps have acted. Nobody has SS, D has Grab and either has ST4 or "c" has Guard. Defensive backfield starts one square back (backers one behind the LOS, secondary two behind). I'm not including the wide zone here, as the conventional WZ setups generally don't occupy the innermost square, so as to effectively form the net. If only one of the ends has Block, it's 1. In that case, "e" ideally has either Block, Wrestle, Frenzy of Grab. If both ends have Block, E should have either Wrestle, Frenzy or Grab.

Code: Select all

Initial setup
- - - f - - -
a b - c d e -
------------
- - 1 2 3 - -
4 - - - - - 5
- 6 - - - 7 -

C blocks 1, pushes laterally.  Push is better than KD in square, but push/KD is fine.  Follow.
- - - f - - -
a b - - d e -
------------
- 1 C 2 3 - -
4 - - - - - 5
- 6 - - - 7 -

D blocks 2, hopefully not knocking down, but Grabbing him down between B and C.  Follow only if you have Guard, and then only maybe.  KD isn't as good as push.  "Both Down" with Block is ok under some circumstances, depending on how the backfield is laid-out, but that's beyond the scope of this.
- - - f - - -
a b 2 - D e -
------------
- 1 C - 3 - -
4 - - - - - 5
- 6 - - - 7 -

F then blocks 2, pushing B across the line of scrimmage.  Follow or don't, depending on circumstances.
- - - - - - -
a 2 F - D e -
------------
b 1 C - 3 - -
4 - - - - - 5
- 6 - - - 7 -

Then either A blocks 1 (if 1 is still standing), or A moves up, or maybe B is ST4 (which would free A to wail on 2 if he's somehow still standing).  Whatever.  If 1 and 2 start their turn in that situation, they're pretty much out of commission.  Defensive player #4 is going to get hit with 2d by offensive player B, and unless the attempt to deal with 3 goes down in flames (again, E with Grab or Frenzy will make that unlikely), the blitz will be on one of the safeties.
Note that this takes only five offensive actions, all of them blocks against four separate defenders. That leaves one guy to get the ball, one guy to protect him, one guy to throw the blitz and front the cage, and three more guys to finish forming the cage, provide some extra support on the ball, or pull off the weakside linebacker for when E Frenzies into #3 (not obvious in this diagram, but if the inside LBs are put inside one square, with the safeties to the outside, the follow-up block on #3 will yield a defensive assist).

The offense can also support this with another guy in the second rank (directly behind A or B) to get another bite at #2 if he doesn't go down when F blocks him (if it's not relevant, he's free to move and well positioned to support the cage or lay the blitz). It's possible to game to hit the safety without blitzing too, but I've never actually done it or seen it done and it would be a lot of actions with some pretty intense positioning and skill requirements. Depending on the defensive alignment it may be even easier, by the way. Teams that put their ILBs inside one to support the LOS are more susceptible to this (at least in theory: said teams tend to have tough inside LB squads).

It's easy to stop, but only with positioning skills (or with ceding the extra square). The nose or both ends with SF or SS will shut the Grab game down. Dodge on both ends will help... unless the opponent has a Frackler. Dodge is useless on the nose, 'cause the opponent is looking to keep the nose tackle on his feet. Block and Wrestle on the D-line are cold comfort and of little use in this context, except on #3, where it's only of limited value as a Frenzy player would take a push with glee should your guy have Block. Fend on the ends is distinctly better than nothing, as it forces a burned action to fill the vacant square, and usually that requires KD'ing the end rather than just pushing. But in this context, SF and SS are better.

So if you want to threaten a 2-turner with everybody off the line, it's much easier to do it if you have one-or-more Side Steppers. In a league format, the superior TD distribution and SPP bump from starting one square back are quite noticeable.

Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Post by Smeborg »

ianwilliams wrote: I'd also say that in many drives the most important turn is the last one ;)
Hear, hear. As (I think) Richard Reti said of another game: "Chess is just an endgame on a massive scale."

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