Skaven....HELP

|)ar|< · Post by **|)ar|<** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:38 pm

Hey guys , I just joined a league as a Skaven coach, I honestly dont know what im doing wrong with them , I tend to get beat up all the time(im sure thats a given) but I also dont have much of any kind of offensive game either, because I tend to get bogged down and then beat up again... go figure. I need help and I have searched on these forums for advice that has allready been posted but wanted something a little more personalized to my team.

here is the league team (which i start firday vs chaos.....great)

4 x Gutterrunners
2 x Stormvermin
1 x Thrower
5 x Linerats
3 x re-roll

Now advice on choosing a different roster is out of the question because the league is locked.

Ive read some people say that they played 15+ game leagues and didnt lose a single match , I dont see how this is possible with what I know now.

The league is 8 games, and will run into multiple seasons.

thanks for any advice guys.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Lineup looks good. That's among my preferred starting Skaven rosters. A good coach can rule the world with that lineup, but it's totally possible to crash and burn with any team if you make even just a couple really big blunders (or get really unlucky). This is even more true of a low-AV team.

I don't know how you're getting beat up, so I only have a little general advice.

When kicking:

1) Only 3 on the line. Everyone else goes 2 or 3 squares back, forming a net to make it tougher for the opponent to get inside.

2) Whichever way the opponent doesn't go, your guys on that side rush the ball-carrier.

3) Get a player with Kick, so you can always put the ball deep in the opposing backfield where the opponent will have a hard time protecting it.

When receiving:

1) Stack the line if you think you can knock the opposing line down.

2) Keep the ball as deep as possible in your backfield until it's time to score, using field length to save yourself from blitzes. Be a religious square-counter, as your life depends on it.

3) Open a hole and run at least 3 intended receivers through: it's best if you use 2 to protect the third.

On either side of the ball:

1) Try not to end up in Tackle Zones unless you are trying to pin down a likely blitzer or receiver, or can get a zone on the ball carrier. If a block yields a push, consider both sides of the issue before following. If you knock down, that may be a different story.

2) If you have to mark a player without Block or Tackle, use a Gutter Runner. If you have to mark a player with Block, use a Storm Vermin. Against rookie Chaos, try to keep the Gutter Runners matched up on the Beastmen: a rookie Beastman will look really bad if you can keep a GR positioned well.

3) Be smart with your risk management. A 1d block with Block is risky; a 1d block without Block is desperate, unless the alternative is dodging and you don't have anywhere to go but "away". Only Block or Wrestle players should consider 2d-against blocks, and even then only with a TRR, and only when a push is a very good result.

4) Whenever you do something that turns out really crazy (good or bad), evaluate it based not so much on what did happen, but on what the mathematical odds were and how they might have been different had you tried a different strategy. If it happens constantly, though, that's different. If you find you're always getting killed on easy stuff it might be more of an issue of when you do what or how much of it you do, rather than how you're doing it. Another way of putting this is: "If you're about to blame yourself or your dice, pause and look at the other one for a moment, just to make sure."

5) Scout your opponent. Set up a board some evening and play a solitaire half using a team like your next opponent's. Immediately after I started doing this in my second season, my win rate jumped from about .600 to better than .800 against tougher competition.

If you can explain how you're getting killed, I can give you better advice.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:36 pm

Rule number 1 of Skaven offense- Multiple Threats. Make sure you end up with 2 or 3 players in his half of the field, preferably not too close to each other and in scoring range.

Also, make sure you have at least one free player to take the ball and get it to one of the open men.

Your opponent will not be able to knock down all your threats, and if he overcommits to marking all of them, you should be able to sweep around the other way.

Eventually, you will have problems with Stand Firm, High Str, or Blodge Side Step pieces, but early on, you should be able to get some penetration in the wide or in the space between the wide and the LOS.

I have seen quite a few rookie coaches pin all their hopes on one gutter runner (or two close together gutter runners) and have their scoring chances evaporate. Make your opponent spread out, and then your superior agility and MA should win you the day on offense.

Cracol · Post by **Cracol** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:57 pm

Personally I'd be more than happy playing a rookie chaos team first of. Ok they've potentially got 4 St 4 players and the rest have got horns but don't focus on that. Focus on the fact that not one of their players has got block and not one has got any skills that allow them to reroll any dice. With that in mind the best defense in my opinion is make them roll as many dice as possible and burn those rerolls (hopefully resulting in turnovers later on in half). Use your speed to put pressure on the ball carrier without putting to many rats in positions where they can get blocked. Spread out the play as much as possible (use your speed to leave his players isolated) and don't forget that your gutter runners will only be knocked down on a straight pow without a turnover (as none of the opo have block) and your stormvermin are better blockers than any of their players. Against a rookie chaos team I would also try as many half dice blocks on the ball carrier as I can as you stand a good chance of knocking him down (don't know the odds but I think its a good chance). Even if you go down yourself it means he would still have to try and pick the ball up again meaning more dice rolls for him to do (which in my mind means more chance of turnovers).
On offense I would probably keep the ball deep to drag 1 or 2 of his players towards it whilst the rest of my team go up one of the flanks (careful of crowd surfs). Then when his players get within striking distance I would run forward and pass/handoff to a gutter runner and then go to the opposite flank with the rest of the team coming with him to set up a screen. As long as he's 4 squares in he is potentially scoring next turn as chaos cant cover the ground from one side to the other. On the flip side if he does keep his players evenly spread then just use your superior numbers on the flank to beat up his players and stick to that side of the pitch.

Don't worry about losing linerats. Do worry about losing gutter runners. They are without doubt the stars of the show so look after them and they'll look after you (how corny is that

). Seriously though gutter runners can do things that make other coaches cry.

I always try to look at a game from my opponent's point of view and if I was playing you I'd be trying to bog you down in a mass brawl in the centre of the pitch and gunning for the gutter runners!! If that starts happening your in trouble so try and get your players out of it as soon as possible. You'll know if your on the right lines or not if his players are spread out all over the place.

|)ar|< · Post by **|)ar|<** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:03 am

Thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it.

Ive been trying some of the tactics with the team im entering into the league and have had mixed results. I barely throw any blocks , and when I do i make sure its a 2 dice block , but dont get very many if any casualties. Scoring still isnt coming very easily for me, but I will keep trying. Also should I have switched out my thrower for a linerat? everyone has been telling me its the gutterrunner who should be running the ball from the back of the field , because hes faster?

Wanchor · Post by **Wanchor** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:57 am

Nah, at least one thrower is a solid choice. You can afford to throw the ball to AG4 receivers, especially with Pass, and Sure Hands is a great way not to look like a giant chump, fumbling the ball in your own endzone, burning re-rolls in the first turn or two. A few completed passes each game with the Thrower and you'll be in line for Accurate, which will really open up your passing game. Besides, he has MA7. That's hardly slow.

Halskov1 · Post by **Halskov1** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:12 pm

A lot of good advice already. Now here's my version of the Skaven offense. It's pretty textbook, but at some point I guess you should read the textbook.

1) Blitz a hole in the opposing line with a Storm Vermin and run two Gutter Runners thought it. Run a number of linerats through as well to shield the GR's from being marked to easily.

2) Dedicate one Gutter Runner to pick up the ball and run with it towards your own end zone so far that no opposing player can put a TZ on him. If failing the pickup would leave the ball within range of opposing players then position at least 1-2 linerats around the ball to insure yourself against disaster. If you are out of TRR's then your Thrower is better for this job as he picks up and throws quick passes with 1/9 risk of failure. With a TRR your GR's are considerably safer since they can do it with a 1/36 risk of failure.

3) If you face a ST3 LOS then beat it down. If you face a ST4-5 LOS then try to stay away from it. In that case consider using a GR for LOS duty as he has a 35/36 chance to dodge away and still enough MA to run through the hole you blitzed.

4) Leave a GR just behind the LOS preferably shielded by linerats. He is there to recieve the hand-off from your ball carrier next turn.

Now your opponent gets to do his thing. If everything went right during your turn, then all your rats are free of TZ's and he only has his blitz to harm you. He cannot reach your back field ball carrier and will probably use his blitz to take out one of your recievers and mark the rest of them as best he can.

If he doesn't manage to mark both of your reciever GR's then you run your backfield GR up to the one at midfield and throw the ball to him. If you have any spare linerats then make sure the ball is reasonably protected if one of the two +2 rolls should result in a turnover. You want to make the throw in the place where you have the best ability to protect the ball if you should drop it. The midfield GR runs the ball up to the open reciever and hands it off and he runs in for the TD. That's the perfect skaven 3 x 2+ TD.

If you have burned your TRR by the time you would make the hand-off,. you should consider holding on to the ball for a turn if you believe you can keep the ball safe and you don't leave half your rats in TZ's to be killed on your opponents turn. The reason is that if you drop the hand-off there is a great risk that you will loose the ball for good or at the very least get bogged down in fist fight over it. Avoid that. If you can't protect it or all your rats will get killed then take your 5/6 shot.

If the GR reciever is marked then you blitz him free and do as above. If a blitz isn't possible, then dodge him out and run him all the way down to the end-zone. If both GR's are double marked try to blitz one of them free. A 3+ & 2+ with dodge to get free isn't bad odds, but you can usually make them a single 2+ with a Blitz. Now you hand-off to the midfield GR and run him up and throw to the GR in the end zone. Some times you can run the GR so far away from the opposition that they can't reach him even if he drops the ball.

Always move free rats to shield the spots where you might drop the ball, i.e. at the pick-up, the hand-off, the throw and the catch. You'll find that you don't have enough linerats for this, so detemine where failure leaves you most vulnerable. If you can prevent your opponent from getting to the dropped ball, chances are you will score next turn (expect more linerats to die though).

After you score you are on defense and this is where you have to show you true skills as a skaven coach (they are definitely not bad at it, though). But this post is already far to long to cover that too

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:10 pm

If you have a re-roll, and you can get a linerat free instead of a GR, then throw to him instead. For this reason, I often use linerats or SVs who need 2-4 SPP to go up as protectors.

If all the opponent's key backfield blitz-targets have Block or Wrestle and you have a TRR, then blitz with a Linerat, as Block is of no help there (unless you have a Stormvermin with some other skill or combo you want to use in the blitz, like Tackle or MB/Claw).

When blocking on the line against bunched-up ST3, line up 7 on the LOS, covering all squares between wide zones, unless you're really down men. Figure out which way you're going, and have the center block the end on the other side. If you don't knock down, you can push horizontally so you get another bite at the apple. In this manner, you open the broadest possible hole and maximize your chance of inflicting damage on the other team.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:37 pm

One thing I find helps with Skaven- attacking both flanks. One way to do this is to dodge down the sideline (3 2+ dodges...) Another way is to use leap.

Because of this, I try to give gutter runner #3 leap. Longterm, you will need leap anyway. Then once you punch the whole in the wide on one side, leap over the other side. You will be surprised how often he goes unmarked, or gets marked by too many players.

Now... Don't leap early in the turn! And try to get that player wrestle ASAP (Leap, Wrestle, VLL or horns on doubles.)

Skarsnikk · Post by **Skarsnikk** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:03 pm

Dont mean to hi-jack the thread but.......

What would you advise when playing against Slaan? Our current league leader is a Slaan team which simply refuses to fail leap roll's.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:09 pm

Skarsnikk wrote:What would you advise when playing against Slaan?

A plate, some crackers or a baguette, and a knife. Some hard salami and maybe a little mustard couldn't hurt. Maybe a die that always rolls 2.

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:57 pm

mattgslater wrote:
Skarsnikk wrote:What would you advise when playing against Slaan?
Maybe a die that always rolls 2.

Yup. Basically, force him to make those leaps. Even if he succeeds most of the time, just one mistake against a Skaven team well-positioned for the counterattack is a TD.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:27 am

Most Slann teams aren't too punchy, so you can tie up his most dangerous players with ease. With the rats mobility you should also be able to hinder his leaping chances in offence if the tries to go for the fast score. And targeting the catchers has the same effect on the team as with Skaven. If he's down to just two, it probably does hurt both his offence and defence, whereas losing liners doesn't do much to the team unless they have special skills.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:04 am

Make a block tackle MB vermin, and target his catchers every turn.

Won't be long till he's down 1-2 (mine can usually take one hit per game.. and you absolutely must screen with the catchers, cause rest of your team will be tied down). Then you just win automatically, as you're basicly facing a human team without blitzers.