Starting Wood Elf advice

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:06 pm

Pro Elf Catchers are great, once you give them Block, Dodge and Leap. I can't imagine but that a WD would also be great.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:37 am

JMGraham wrote:Another thought is Nerves of Steel. It would be nice to have a pass receiver who could catch even when marked, and then dodge/leap out. However, I could see such a player being a SPP hog.

Here I go again...

Personally I think Nerves of Steel is the most overrated skill in the game. Elves, and especially wood elves, don't need NoS to score. If an elf player can't score without NoS he needs to practice more, because it really isn't that hard.
I agree it has *some* use on defence by getting to a loose ball in tz's and passing it out of there. But usually the real problem is getting the ball loose. Once it's loose and you have some side steppers it shouldn't be too hard to recover it.

Matt, I agree NoS works on Pro Elf catchers. BUT they get the skill built into their statline for a measly 10k. A wardancer taking this skill adds 30 to TV and a skill slot (which can be used on much better options).

Personally I would take Mighty Blow. Wardancers will be doing most of the blitzing and they will be hitting key targets. Take out their Sure Hands player and life becomes a lot easier! A MB dancer is also a nightmare for lizzy players as it's hard to shield skinks from a such a fast and agile blitzer with a punch. Same goes for other teams that rely on shielding fragile players.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:18 am

Personally I think Nerves of Steel is the most overrated skill in the game.

Couldnt have said it better. So many things make NOS useless later on (like a STR or AG increase, for instance). Plus, it's extremely expensive for an effect that triggers once/3 games.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:27 pm

But it's so much FUN!

Otherwise, I totally agree: it's a fun gimmick. But it's also a good combo gimmick with a lot of stuff you'd give a WD anyway.

You're probably right that MB would be a better use of an early double. WDs don't need Guard, but Juggernaut would be another very usable skill.

And the most overrated skill in the game is Strip Ball, at least in a league format. ("Elf say: 'you do smart thing or Elf punish you,' but everybody do smart thing so Elf never get to punish. Punishment no good anyway, leave ball in zone.") Nerves is the best skill that almost nobody takes (for good reason).

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:57 pm

Strip Ball is awesome in early leagues, and it sucks in later leagues.

That's why it's perfect on wardancers. They are awesome out of the box, so you give them Strip Ball early and when they inevitably die and are replaced, you don't take the skill.

Almost no other team in the game (Skaven excepted) can take advantage of the first 10 games of a season like Wood Elves can.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:24 am

Indeed Juggernaut would be a great pick too. I have never taken it on a Wardancer before, but I always build at least 1 with Frenzy so I can definately see that working out. I'll give this a go in my next WE team.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:17 am

Jural wrote:I have toyed around with a way to make Blood Bowl more to my liking at high TV's... and I came up with re-rolls being removed from the game and re-roll counters allowing you to just keep playing on in your turn after absorbing the bad roll. But then you have throwers dumping the ball downfield to empty space, a re-roll being used, and a catcher walking over and picking up the ball... so man marking becomes useless... Someday I want to fix that problem and try the games again, they were fun.

Say that you can't carry on after a failed pass? Or just a pass to an empty square? Or say you can't pass to an empty square at all (intentional grounding) but add kicking (that is an auto-turnover)?

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:27 am

mattgslater wrote:Want to beat Wood Elves? No good advice. Get lucky. Play well. Control the ball, keep the game going slowly, hope your opponent rolls at least his fair share of 1s or makes some kind of mistake, or that you take out both WDs and a couple other guys.

I have some sympathy for this view. It is incredibly frustrating playing against WEs. Because with one decent turn of dice they can win the game without you being able to do anything about it. No skills, no positioning, no tactics can stop a WE leaping in, rolling POW and getting a good bounce. And if they turn you over its pretty much good night.... they are more than capable of prancing about on their drive for a stalled score.

Now maybe that isn't cheesy or wrong, but it is definitely frustrating in a way other teams aren't. Even against Undead or Khemri with 3 men down you can be in a game. In deep trouble, sure, but at least involved in the game. The thing that WEs do, especially in tournaments, is remove the opposing coach from the equation. They stand or fall on their own dice rolls.

Having spoken to WE coaches, we pretty much agreed that all you can do against them is make them roll dice and hope they fail. Now there are ways of doing this that mean if they do fail, you have a huge advantage. But it is still a case of hoping they roll 1 more than once per turn.

So not broken, just annoying.

Though clearly changing Wardancers might have helped. Like Fend instead of Dodge to start. At least give them something to think about.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:21 am

Joemanji wrote:I have some sympathy for this view. It is incredibly frustrating playing against WEs. Because with one decent turn of dice they can win the game without you being able to do anything about it. No skills, no positioning, no tactics can stop a WE leaping in, rolling POW and getting a good bounce.

I used to think that. But it's easy to counter.

2 Guards and a surehands ballcarry. Or a surehands S4 ballcarry will mean he needs 2 POWs (1/9 or 1/36).

Sure, very short leagues and most tournament formats make WDs very frustrating. But that is all.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:51 am

Carnis wrote:I used to think that. But it's easy to counter.

2 Guards and a surehands ballcarry. Or a surehands S4 ballcarry will mean he needs 2 POWs (1/9 or 1/36).

Sure, very short leagues and most tournament formats make WDs very frustrating. But that is all.

Of course. But a blodging, sure hands ball carrier with 2 Guards around him is big ask in a tournament or early in a league. And even that relies on perfect positioning every turn to get those Guards on the corners... a good coach will try to tie up one to create an angle.

Besides, I have had just that and watched a Wardancer leap into my cage with no re-rolls and get double-POW/. Hilarious actually.

Or I have lined up my Sure Hands ball carrier with 2 Guards protecting him, only to watch a Wardancer leap into the catch and get him down on a half dice block 3 turns in a row.

It's just a different feeling with WE. If you get mashed by any other team they have to earn it. Spend 2 or 3 turns positioning well and maximising blocks etc. If they get lucky on the AV dice and you end up men down ... oh well, you can see how it happened. But any chump can go 3+ leap, smack. And a good coach can be scary...

Where I am leading? I guess my point is, Undead got totally hammered in LRB6 but WEs got a tickle. Not commensurate IMO.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:46 pm

Joemanji wrote:And if they turn you over its pretty much good night.... they are more than capable of prancing about on their drive for a stalled score.

Ouch. Never had that happen. I keep having to tell myself I wouldn't shoot myself if I got stalled on by an AV7 team. But I've been beaten a couple times by Wood Elves (never lost to Pro, High or Dark Elves) and it's because they're seriously impossible to cover until they start getting hurt. It takes 3 guys (or 2 guys and a lucky break) to pin a Dancer down.

It's not like they're unbeatable. But MA7/AG4 is really awesome.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:21 pm

mattgslater wrote:(never lost to Pro, High or Dark Elves)

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:28 pm

I have the memory of a D-oriented coach, so I could be wrong... but I've won a lot of blowouts both with and against Pro and High Elves, so I won't make the argument that they're underpowered. But no, I'd remember if I'd ever lost to a non-Wood Elf team. I tied a Dark Elf team once....

Some of it's coaching differential (nothing worse than a chump with elves and I used to know a pretty good WE coach, who went 2-5 against me at a time when all elf teams had problems), but DE, PE and HE are powered about right for a challenge team, while WE are markedly better. I'm not saying anything more than that, and I'd like to hear some effort to argue against it.

Anecdote warning: one of the newbies I'm bringing up is a speed-monster. He's rank and raw, but he's climbing the curve. After going 0-3 with Pro Elves (one vs. me, fine, but the others were newbies), he picked up Skaven and Woodie teams. His Rats are 1-1 and very sickly, but his Woodies are 2-0, and he's begging to put them up against my killer High Elves. Yeah, he's gotten better (he's learned about dropping back, he's starting to take to good defensive principles... his risk management still scares me), but so has his opposition, as we've picked up a couple veterans (not great veterans, but hardly novices). It's obvious how effective a crutch the WD can be. Hardly a sample, yeah, sure, but for that you need only check out Ian's numbers: it's pretty black-and-white.