Optimum size for a dwarf team?

[mattgslater]

Let me give you an example: A developed Skaven team will probably have Linerats with some kind of survival skills such as Wrestle/Fend or Block/Dodge. Having three of those to put at the LoS is just fine, but what about the extra linerats you have sitting in the reserves box? A single dual-skill Linerat is worth 90k, and two unskilled ones are worth 100k. In this case, I would constantly fire whatever Linerats I think are not contributing enough to justify their teamvalue, and hope to roll some doubles or stat increases for the new guys when they happend to reach their first skill level.

Not so sure there, either. I'm going to use the Blodging Linerat analogy, because the math is easy and is one of the less-favorable constructions for my point (low Linerat cost, +10k TV for Dodge), so I can stay conservative. Note that this is only plausible on a highly developed Skaven team, as you'd have to have 11 guys to take over him.
2 Linerats = 100k = Linerat with free automatic Apothecary.
Linerat with Block, Dodge = 100k = Linerat with 31% chance to fall instead of 75%.

Which is more durable? Which will serve your team better? Which will keep your guys from getting hurt? In this case, it's better either to carry one less man or 50k extra TV, as the Blodging Linerat is both more durable than two Linerats, and more usable in the moment (both because he has skills to use proactively and because he's much less likely to get knocked down, stunned or carted off -- all situations for which the extra reserve is no immediate help).

How about this?
High Elf: 70k
High Elf with Block: 90k.
High Elf with Blodge: 110k.
Chance High Elf falls down when hit 2d: 75%.
Chance High Elf with Block falls down when hit 2d: 56%.
Chance High Elf with Blodge falls down when hit 2d: 31%.
3 High Elf Benchwarmers: 210k.
2 High Elf Blodging Benchwarmers: 220k, and way tougher.

[Jural]

I think that with the only source of MA 6 on the team, it's great to field both runners on defense as well, and to build accordingly (really meaning block early)

[lerchey]

I think that while I hadn't really thought it through much, I have to agree with mattgslater in practice.

My team (as shown above) has 14 players, though I *just* purchased the DR, so I won't field it until this Saturday.

One runner has KoR, the other has Fend (second skills, they both also have block - oddly, they also have identical SPP values!). On offense, I field both of them. On defense, I don't field the KoR runner as I don't want to risk him when KoR has no value.

Likewise, one Blocker got MVP 2 games in a row, but otherwise had no SPPs. Gave him Kick. I only field him when I'm kicking. It's a very nice skill to mess with the opposing team, but has no value otherwise.

Being able to have enough players to not have to field defensive players on offense and visa-versa is a nice luxury.

I think that for a while (though I can't afford the last two Blockers right now anyway), I'm going to stick with a 14 player dwarf team and see how it goes. Eventually, I may buy the last two Blockers as emergency reserves - like if our Orc team player (currently leading the league in causing deaths) elects to try to eliminate my players.

Thank you for the advice, and apologies if I've hijacked the thread at all. :)

[Setomidor]

mattgslater: thanks for the well motivated responses, I'll try to cover most of the many points you do in one go.

First, you absolutely have a point about special players (such as an Orc Thrower with KOR that only plays on offence), and for such builds I also think having skilled players on the bench makes sense. It is the extra lineman or linerat that is just a space filler that I'm talking about.

About the skilled extra players, you also have to consider the flow of the game. Very generalized, you are either up against a team that is likely to cause a lot of casualties and make a grinding kind of play, or you are up against a team that are less likely to cause casualties (or even avoids blocking as much as possible), but will try to score as many touchdowns as possible. In the first case, you are unlikely to get any replacements on the field before the second half starts because any griding team (especially one that has caused you casualties) are likely to go for a slow grind. In the other case, you are unlikely to need your skilled replacements due to the unlikeliness of suffering casualties!

What I'm saying is that, especially in the Dwarf case, you are paying full value for a player that is quite unlikely to play more than half of the game (against bashy opponents) or even at all (against scoring opponents). Of course, having specialized O/D players totally breaks this reasoning, but it applies to situations when you have an extra player just for good measure.

With teams such as Skaven and High Elves it gets a little less Black and White, as you are both more likely to suffer casualties and also a bit more likely to suffer some casualty and still scoring a TD, giving you the opportunity to actually field your benchwarmers. In this case, I think the key point to stress is that on a developed team the things you are lacking are most likely stat increases and double skills (such as HE linemen with Guard or +AG). Relying on rookies to fill the spot of a ordinary, skilled player does not only conserve your team value, it also gives you a lot more opportunities to roll for skills as the rookies will reach their first skill levels much more quickly than any other player on a developed team.

[mattgslater]

I agree with everything you've said. I see what you mean about Dwarfs being special cases (they start with Block), but do note that with Dwarfs it's also very hard to skill all your Blockers, usually rendering the point moot. With elf teams, I agree rookies skill faster, but at some point this is self-eliminating, as all your rookies are skilled. At that point, you can settle into a 13-man roster, and you'll have one skilled benchwarmer and two toolbox players, one of which is off the field at any given time.

[Heff]

I would say optimum size would be 3'6" certainly nothing over 4'2"

[frogbear]

required posts by certain individuals in this thread.
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Seriously dude. A question asked about how to shmuck the most deserves it.

[voyagers_uk]

and yet... Others seem able to have a decent discussion on this subject.

Quit Trolling, if it annoys you then start a poll elsewhere on how irritating Dwarf coaches are. that will attract the correct level of chat and superflous insults.

[Gimli]

I've played Dwarves for a few years now. My league team has 40+ games, and a TV of 205. (Prior to an unfortunate death, it was 220 or so). I agree that playing less well developed teams, you can live with a 12 or 13 player roster. But I have to play a 240 TV Chaos team with 3 Block/Claw/MB players. Playing that team with less than 15 players verges on folly, especially if one of my players, the DR, can only play one drive.

I am at 14 now (really, 13 1/2 with the DR), and will likely add another rookie Blocker for my next game.

That said, I can't ever see going 16. I still get inducements, and if I didn't have a roster spot for a Star player, I'd be quite limited in what I could take.

As for who plays, I don't really have any skill players who would only play offense or defense. The sole exception is a one skill Runner (with Block) who I will not play of defense if I have a one skill Blocker (Guard or SF) available. And vice versa.

[DoubleSkulls]

I'm actually a fan of running "fat" teams (or at least slightly overweight ones). The reason that I think the analogy sticks a bit further. lean teams are good a running hard, but when the going gets tough they don't have the fat reserves to draw on to stick it out.

So commonly I'll end up with 14 or 15 player rosters - even with Dwarves and Orcs. Deathroller is only half a player too... making Dwarves more like a 13.5 team

Fat means several things
* When I'm winning giving extra inducements to my opponent (or less myself) is irrelevant. I'm winning.
* When things aren't going well and my opponent gets early cas/KOs I've still got 11 starting every drive. Extra players on the field are worth a lot, and this is one way of getting them.
* I can foul a bit without worrying too much about not being able to have 11 for subsequent drives

My experience is that pretty much all the bash teams I'm playing at TV levels where it matters (1800+) other bash teams are all pretty deadly (MB, PO, Claw etc) so I'm going to lose players. One or two reserves just aren't enough to cope most of the time.