Heretical Chaos Dwarf development strategy

[Smeborg]

My (ahem) world famous Chaos Dwarf team, The Spikeheads, have not seen action in a long league since the heady days of 3rd Edition (before Bull Centaurs existed, let alone Wrestle). They have recently taken to the streets of Middenheim in our open league, with a slow start (2 losses, 2 wins). After just 4 games, their roster has reached its final extent (14 men), with a solid, if slow, start to team development:

2 Bulls (one has Break Tackle)
6 Chaos Dwarfs (one has Claw, one has Guard)
6 Hobgoblins (one has Block, one has +1MA)
3 Re-rolls
Apoth
Underlying TV before skills and FF: 118

(I dislike the Mino on this team as you always seem to have a better Blitz choice with a BC. A Wild Animal who does not Blitz is a waste of TV IMO. Whereas a CD team without a Mino has a very lean TV for what it does.)

Now I usually play the BCs as the primary ball carriers, which (for me at least) is the orthodox starting strategy for this team. However, I have seen other coaches on this forum promote the idea of leaving ball handling duties to the lowly Hobgobs. I am giving this idea a try, with the following development strategy:

BCs: Break Tackle, Wrestle, Tackle, Fend (Dodge, Sidestep on doubles). Specialist Blitzers, particularly adept at sacking ball carriers.

CDs: Guard, M-Blow (Claw on doubles). Those with Claw + M-Blow will get P-On, Dauntless. Those without Claw will get S-Firm, Grab. Nothing original here - Blockers, Assisters, Slayers, Obstacles.

HGs: Block, Fend, Pro, Tackle (Dodge, Sidestep on doubles). A different build for 1 or 2 getting early stat increases (e.g. +MA, +AG) to include (say) S-Hands, KoR. Specialist Ball Handlers, divided into Receivers, Runner(s), and potentially a Thrower (+1AG), with an eye to protection, screening and escort duties, and utility play.

This seems to me a good build in prospect, with well-defined roles which are easy to play at the table. I would welcome comments, especially from experienced CD coaches, and of course from anyone who may have tried this strategy out.

[TuernRedvenom]

I'm hardly an experienced CD coach, but what I'm missing here is Frenzy. It's a utility skill every team needs at least once IMO. The most obvious place for it is as third skill (after break tackle & Block/Wrestle) on a Bull, but should a hobgob skill up quickly I would be tempted to give it Frenzy on the second skillup (after Block).

[cyagen]

I would give MB first and then Guard on the Blockers. You need them to skill up and MB speed up there development as CAS are the only way for these guys to get SPPs

[Blammaham]

I would give MB first and then Guard on the Blockers. You need them to skill up and MB speed up there development as CAS are the only way for these guys to get SPPs

I would say mix between Gaurd and MB. I agree that you need the MB for spp's but you need Gaurd to win some earlier games too, especialy VS Orcs and to a lesser degree Chaos and Nurgle.

I really like the Mino on my CD team, and whlie he dosn't get used like he is designed to I like the beef againsed some of the afore mentioned tough teams. Some of the best coaches I know disagree, thats fine, I have found him to be useful if not used too much or early in turns. He comes with frenzy, and I find just the treat of frenzy is good enough for what I need.

I have decided to move away from PO with any of the Blockers that have claw because of their movement and I want to keep tackle zones active. I feel that this willl cause me to forgo the PO and therfore reduce the skills effectiveness. I like the idea having some dauntless on them and I woulld alternate between Gaurd and Daunless for them. I an woefully thin on Gaurd and any Hobgoblin that gets doubles is getting Gaurd for sure.

Here's a look at my team after 16 games for reference to what I'm saying.

http://thunderbowl.ca/tbsn/index.php?se ... eam_id=113

I also run the ball with my bulls and will continue to do so, it has just saved my bacon so many times to be able to punch it in from 9 squares away with near impunity, though I'm thinking that I may give SH to the ST 4 Hobgoblin.

Oh one more note, I didn't take a double on a Claw CD to go with MB insted and I'd do it again in a heart beat to make sure he gets moving towards his next skill.

Hope this helps.S.

[mattgslater]

To me this isn't heretical: it's standard procedure, and it works GREAT.

Mighty Blow is a good skill to spread across all your Dwarfs in a perpetual format. Now that you have one Guard guy, you'd be fine to do that. If not, then I'd say focus more on Stand Firm and Guard, except for the Claw guy and maybe one other.

I like the idea of developing your BCs as pressure guys. I'd follow Break Tackle with Wrestle, Frenzy and Stand Firm at 51, with Dodge on doubles. You've got six Dwarfs: if you need Tackle, it's your fault.

No Sure Hands on the Hobs? I'd be looking to build a returner quickly, as he smoothes out your development by reducing the odds of a backfield flub.

With you on the Minotaur.

[Carnis]

Ye I'd swap the BCs Tackle/Fend to Frenzy/Stand firm as well. Stand firm is so obvious due to ST4/AV9. Wrestle can be good due to high MA (9 even). This means you must forego mighty blow though..

SH/Block hobgoblin ballcarrier for me, taken after using doubles for dodge.. Playing without a primary ballcarry until that.

[mattgslater]

Even then, he's not my "primary ballcarrier" — he's my retriever. I like to build my cage at or beyond midfield and have SH guy pick up and either hand-off or chuck to the anonymous Hobgoblin who will carry the ball for the time-being. Kick-Off Return is skill #3 on him; if you want a Fend/SH/Block guy, develop one from Fend/Block. But cross the goal-line with whoever needs the points.

By handling the ball with your Hobgoblins you'll quickly learn how good five Hobs with two skills each can be. You'll also play more exciting football. Chaos Dwarfs can modulate their speed to their opponent: with proper development, you'll eventually find yourself with an enviable toolbox of 14 quality players.

[DoubleSkulls]

Looks pretty conventional to me

I'd mix up MB and Guard as the first skill on CDs. Some of those will get doubles on their 2nd & 3rd skills so you might just want to consider those to be the first two skills regardless. I'd also recommend getting at least two Dauntless just to help out against those S4 players.

Bulls - Frenzy is a good later skill on these because mobile S4 guys are great frenzy players

Mino - I agree and I'd not take one on the team.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, guys, for all your helpful comments, which I much appreciate.

The "heretical" was tongue-in-cheek. The only heretical aspect (to me) is carrying the ball with HGs instead of BCs. I am pleased at the lack of direct objections to Wrestle on the BCs, which confirms that this skill has finally (after several years) made it into the mainstream as one of the best skills in the game.

The Bulls skill up slowly, so it's only the first 2-3 skills and the first double that matter, IMO. I'm open-minded about the 4th and 5th skill slots. Grab and Pro are other candidates for late skills.

The HG with +1MA will probably take S-Hands, followed by KoR (unless the team gets a HG with +1AG before that). Since he will not have Block, he may well play on offense only.

I am open-minded about the order of skill development on the CDs, but suggest this has changed a bit since the little chappies got access to Claw. If any do get Claw as a first skill-up, following it with M-Blow, P-On seems the obvious path. Therefore I suggest other CDs should start with Guard, to prevent the team being Guard-deficient (they need plenty when facing raw St teams, and Guard is essential for protecting a HG ball carrier in a cage).

I don't believe that this team needs Frenzy (although I am open-minded and regard Frenzy as an excellent skill). Many teams work well with Frenzy; on a slow team such as the CDs, I prefer the positional reliability in defense that comes with having no Frenzy. If I thought the team needed Frenzy, I would take the Mino. [Before this thread degenerates into an interminable discussion on the merits of Frenzy, let me also state that I think this debate can only be settled at the table, not on a forum!]

It's interesting that I find the Chaos Dwarf team as easy to play and develop as I did in 3rd Ed., although the strategy has changed along with the game rules. Maybe it's because the team (sans Mino) has only 3 types of player, each well-differentiated from the others, and each with correspondingly clear suggested roles.

All the best

[TuernRedvenom]

I don't believe that this team needs Frenzy (although I am open-minded and regard Frenzy as an excellent skill). Many teams work well with Frenzy; on a slow team such as the CDs, I prefer the positional reliability in defense that comes with having no Frenzy.

Every non-stunty team is better with frenzy then without IMO. Frenzy on mobile players adds positional advantages (opponents need to take it into account on the sidelines, it's easier to open holes in defences, better chances on knockdown, easier to neutralize receivers: push them together,...), it doesn't take it away. A BC with Break Tackle is the perfect candidate: reliable, fast, strong and agile.

If I thought the team needed Frenzy, I would take the Mino.

The mino doesn't have a great benefit of frenzy. He is too slow, cannot dodge, is unreliable and hard to position right due to Wild Animal. Personally I don't think he pulls his worth in TV.

[Before this thread degenerates into an interminable discussion on the merits of Frenzy, let me also state that I think this debate can only be settled at the table, not on a forum!]

ermm, this is a discussion forum. If you only want to settle debates on a pitch, don't post.

[mattgslater]

With Tuern on all counts. Frenzy helps you open holes, it helps you get chainpushes (critical when busting cages), it's just generally an awesome piece of toolbox goodness.

[Blammaham]

With Tuern on all counts. Frenzy helps you open holes, it helps you get chainpushes (critical when busting cages), it's just generally an awesome piece of toolbox goodness.

Frenzy is all that and it help keep people honest on D while setting up in the wide zones.S.