Human Line of Scrimmage Questions

[Smeborg]

Hmm...Smeborg is the only one arguing in favour of Wrestle so far. If you don't take Guard on lineman doubles, what do you take? Dodge?

Yes.

[Smurf]

I put up 3 Linemen. The ogre only goes on the LOS if there is something large to hit, otherwise he goes off to stand next to someone.

Also it's funny if you get a blitz... The Ogre goes off to hit something and the blitzers run through.

[DoubleSkulls]

I like wrestle on about half the linemen. Don't build linemen for the LOS and cringe everytime you have to put a skilled player there.

[Welshy]

I would suggest that the usefulness of WRESTLE is dependant on your starting roster. If you've started (or develop towards) a lot of limemen and Team re-rolls a Lineman can be a good performer. In the more traditional build (included Blitzers, catchers and MAX of 3RR) though they seldom do much but foul and take blocks.

A few Wrestle is great or making holes, but usually after most have BLOCK. Assuming linemen with BLOCK get a chance to use it earlier in the league (less block across the board) then they'll also have a shot at second skill. An early skilled lineman with WRESTLE tends to slow their progression earlier in the league. Assuming 5 Linemen on a team I'd be aiming for 3BLOCK then 2WRESTLE (in that order).

I do agree with SMEBORG that WRESTLE/FEND is an awesome combo and linemen are the obvious ones to develope them on. However unless you've got a good chance to hose in the SPP's with your linemen (4+ TRR) WRESTLE can inpede SPP, therefore skill generation on your team.

[mattgslater]

I like wrestle on about half the linemen. Don't build linemen for the LOS and cringe everytime you have to put a skilled player there.

I like to build everybody. I cringe every time I have to put a rookie on the line, because he ups my odds of having to play man-down. A one-skill player isn't a big investment, and he's more likely to stay functioning and keep your better players from having to go to the line, or just getting outnumbered and overpowered.

But yeah, ST3 AV8 linemen are pretty low in the skilling-priority list. I still like to get them to 6 SPP, because it's easy and you get a big bang for the first improvement.

[Joemanji]

Putting skilled players on the line when you don't have to is a pretty quick way to end up with more unskilled players. I.e. eventually you will end up putting unskilled players on the line. It's your choice whether you do it voluntarily or because the skilled players you put there died.

So basically, your three linemen with the lowest SPPs. That leaves room for 4 Blitzers, the Ogre and a mix of Catchers/Throwers/Linemen per your own preference.

[mattgslater]

So basically, your three linemen with the lowest SPPs.

On that we agree. I just like to keep that lowest SPPs number at 6+.

If you're running 14 guys, with 3 Catchers, an Ogre, 2 Throwers and 4 Blitzers, you have 4 linos on your roster. One of those linos is your Kicker. The others all have to go on the LOS, or you're investing even more by putting up Blitzers or the Ogre. Some of those guys will skill through MVPs and Cas even if you're not trying to skill them. Then you'll have skilled guys on the line. Those guys will want support from other skilled guys. 1x Wrestle on the D-line is worthless, because he'll just get blocked by a rookie or with 3d and the Block guy will hit a rookie. But 3x Wrestle (or 2x and 1x Block/Guard) is great, because the offense's Block guys are just SOL.

You could run 2 Catchers and 5 linos, I suppose, and that would let you build one more off-the-line lino. But you pretty much have to develop a dedicated line. You don't have enough guys to have anybody you don't plan to skill, or maybe just one. You have a dedicated passer, in Thrower #1. He doesn't play defense unless you're on a short clock or down on men (fortunately, those tend to go hand-in-hand). You have a backup Catcher, because you don't want to have to run 3x ST2 on defense. That leaves one full-time reserve, maybe. If you're like me and only like to run one Catcher on Turn 1 defense, that leaves no true bench.

It's okay if you lose a skill to death from time to time. But that skill reduces your death rate by up to 26%, and also makes the player more useful and more likely to stay on the field. This is even more true of A-access lines, like elves, who can take the more-universally-applicable Dodge, but still.

[Grumbledook]

Wrestle and don't put the Ogre on the LOS

also agree to use unskilled guys on there until you have them all skilled up, got to the ecbbl final with humans and only had 2 skills on linemen the whole season, one had block one had wrestle

the mvps kept landing on the blitzers (which was nice) and the throwers and catchers as well got most the spp

so tbh its not really overly important either way ;]

[Joemanji]

So basically, your three linemen with the lowest SPPs.

On that we agree. I just like to keep that lowest SPPs number at 6+.

If you're running 14 guys, with 3 Catchers, an Ogre, 2 Throwers and 4 Blitzers, you have 4 linos on your roster. One of those linos is your Kicker. The others all have to go on the LOS, or you're investing even more by putting up Blitzers or the Ogre. Some of those guys will skill through MVPs and Cas even if you're not trying to skill them. Then you'll have skilled guys on the line.

As Grum implies, you have to have a reasonably advanced team to have that problem. Most BB is not played at that level. Once you get to that level, the players you put on the line are generally the most gimped ... a Bllitzer with AG2 for example, who you don't have enough to replace right now, but is less valuable than your Guard lino. Or something like that. My point being, at high TVs who goes on the LoS is very team-specific. Not so a low to mid TVs, so that is a more relevant topic.

[Smeborg]

My experience of Wrestlers is that they continue to skill, albeit slowly, as they get CAS because they block and blitz plenty.

While I do not often put my more valuable or skilled players on the LoS, with many teams (Humans are one of them) I vary the players on the defensive LoS according to circumstance (for example, how bashy is my opponent, what is the state of the match, how many turns are left in the half, have I used the Apoth yet, etc.). It is also easy to run out of Humie line-fodder, as you may start with as few as 3, 4 or 5 Linos (not including the Kicker), so you may have no option late in the game but to put some of your better players on the LoS (Blitzers, Ogre if you have one, etc.). Shortage of Linos is a classic problem for Humies, a bit like shortage of Linerats on the Skaven team. It's worth planning for a bit so that you don't go into shock at the table.

[mattgslater]

As Grum implies, you have to have a reasonably advanced team to have that problem..

Could be as few as 6-7 games, maybe a little longer. If you get 3x MVP on linemen over 7 matches (pretty average, given that you'll probably start 4-6 on game 1), you only have to pick up a random casualty, two garbage passes, a random score or cas/pass and a dedicated TD, and suddenly all your linos have skills. If it's semi-random like that, you'll maybe take 10-12 games should the MVPs not come down that way. If you're like me and actually work to skill all your guys, you shouldn't be starting more than one rookie beginning around game 8.

[stashman]

Wrestle is awesome on LOS. Add Fend to that and you will have a "bad" stand firm/side step version to linos without ST or AG skills.

[Joemanji]

See, I don't see how that is worth the TV. Fend on the LoS is garbage as you can just block along the line. But 3 Linemen with Wrestle+Fend is 120K extra. I'd rather have 2 Bloodweiser Babes / Helmut Wulf / whatever (or deny them to my opponent).

[mattgslater]

See, I don't see how that is worth the TV. Fend on the LoS is garbage as you can just block along the line. But 3 Linemen with Wrestle+Fend is 120K extra. I'd rather have 2 Bloodweiser Babes / Helmut Wulf / whatever (or deny them to my opponent).

With you on Fend on a Human line, unless you've got other things making your line great. I think Fend is a good follow-up to SS or a corner on a team without good A or S access.

[Carnis]

See, I don't see how that is worth the TV. Fend on the LoS is garbage as you can just block along the line. But 3 Linemen with Wrestle+Fend is 120K extra. I'd rather have 2 Bloodweiser Babes / Helmut Wulf / whatever (or deny them to my opponent).

With you on Fend on a Human line, unless you've got other things making your line great. I think Fend is a good follow-up to SS or a corner on a team without good A or S access.

Totally disagree. Wrestle turns 75% knockdown rate to 55%, whilst fend counters frenzy/piling on. If you arent getting piling on'd on the line then you are better off without fend, but you can use fend after T1 as well.