The D-Line: Scrubs or studs?

[mattgslater]

There's been a lot of chatter about D-lines lately, so I have a simple poll question: Do you build players for D-line survival, or do you use it as a place to stash players you don't care about, or a little of both?

Vote for each of the strategies that you follow. If you follow different strategies with different team races, vote for all of them, and for H. Then post, please. If you follow different strategies with the same team race, vote for one or more of A-E, and for G, then post. If your one strategy evolves over time, vote for all, plus F, then post.

*** VOTE ONLY FOR STRATEGIES YOU ACTUALLY USE ON TEAM RACES YOU ACTUALLY PLAY! ***

I play High, Pro and Dark Elves, Orcs, Humans, and occasionally Khemri, Nurgle, Undead, Necromantic, Norse, and Chaos.

With the Elves, I'd say it's D: I'll try to build a SS player for the nose really fast, then just use the line for JMs and gimps until I've got a healthy list of regulars, at which point I migrate to B. I dedicate my Human line right away, 'cause there are so many positionals that I can't avoid it. I tend to build two Blitzers as nose/flankers, and keep a line rotation of two of three players, so I can improve the other one. With Necromantic, I keep a rotation of 5x Zombie, with another one who becomes my Kicker. But Zeds skill so slowly, they might as well just be fodder. With Undead, it's sort of a cross between that and Humans: I tend to run 4x Zombie, and one hangs in the reserves, but they improve faster because I like to run a Skel kicker.

For Orcs and Nurgle, I like the BOB-types (and maybe the Troll for the Orcs) on the LOS. I think that qualifies for A. For Khemri, I like to keep them in the backfield, running rookie Skels, so that's C. Same with Norse, because they have only one skill in the D-line progression. For Chaos, I tend to try to build a Guard BM and a pair of Block/Guard Warriors, which I think is sort of on the line between A and B.

So I voted for everything except E. Some people, I'd imagine, stick to C or D. Let's find out, shall we?

[James_Probert]

I don't build players specificly for the D-line.

When I don't have any rookies/players I don't care about to put there though, (or I don't want to field the rookies at all this drive for some reason), then I'll put the minimum spp on the line, while also aiming to minimise damage, so for instance, if my opponent has very little tackle, I'll (as a HE player) look to spam blodge on the line (with sidestep as a prefered optional extra), but if he has a multitude of tacklers (dorfs f.e.) I'll leave the blodgers off the line, and just use players with block/nothing.

[Digger Goreman]

With Necros it's the obligatory, 3-zombies.... The only exception is one of my current teams with a 4 St zombie... so it's him and the two FGs against most opponents....

With Undead it's almost always three zeds AND the two mummies....

Vamps... p'shaw! Throw some cheap thralls at 'em....

[mattgslater]

So you put up a 5-man DL with Undead?

[Digger Goreman]

Depends... but often the mummies can take care of their own... at least against 3 St opponents....

Sometimes I put the mummies on the line with a zed in between... and use the other two zeds as outside linebackers (within the LOS zone and close to the line)....

[elfman]

When I start build a team only lineman/0-16 guys go to line if there are no reason to do otherwise. After all linefodder players are skilled I look at them and choose those unluckies who are going to to in line in defense. With humans that means there are three linemen with block and hopefully with fend. Of course if there are unskilled linemen or linemen without second skill/etc. I use them in line instead of twice skilled linemen. This is more common to me in Cyanides PC-version but I'll do this tabletop when my human team is old enough [our leagua is three seasons old and I've already three teams, humans, evles and humans again so players haven't developed to this point].

So I voted C but I aim to F with my teams.

[voyagers_uk]

I build players to go on the line to help direct traffic, so SS/dodge/Fend, that way they clog up running lanes. and are able to rush the passer from an unmarked square.

[Purplegoo]

I will never, ever, get the idea of developing players for the LOS. I understand the arguments I read, but it's still madness to me to dedicate time and effort to skilling guys specifically for one or two turns in a game, and even then specifically to get hit by the better hitting players on the opposing team. It's daft to me. Even if one assumes they each do their job and stay upright and dangerous, a good coach isn't going to be too perturbed they didn't get ahead on the opening blocks anyway, they'll assume failure and legislate.

Therefore, I voted C, although it's not totally accurate, since sometimes the players I care least about are just those with less spps, no doubles, etc. depending on how developed the team is. The only contrary examples that spring to mind are a) Trolls on Orc teams and Trees for Woodies, who's primary job is as a roadblock / punching bag before they get any skills anyway (this isn't something that changes as time moves on), b) the occasional use of a Regen player such as a Nurgle Warrior in T16 when I've taken a beating already and fancy a gamble I'd rather have enough guys for the next game and c) defenders of a OTS, but those aren't players bred for the purpose, more there by accident as skills like SS and SFirm are given out for more general reasons.

[mattgslater]

I will never, ever, get the idea of developing players for the LOS. I understand the arguments I read, but it's still madness to me to dedicate time and effort to skilling guys specifically for one or two turns in a game, and even then specifically to get hit by the better hitting players on the opposing team.

This is a major misunderstanding. You're not building a guy for 1-2 turns; you're building him for 8 turns. Don't buy skills that don't have broad utility. Fortunately, for all GA access players, there are three clear best normal skills: Block/Wrestle, Dodge, and Side Step. Along with doubles skill Guard, those are the best skills in all phases of the game, and you want a whole lot of them. In a happy coincidence, they're also the best skills on the D-line.

Also, for all-AG3+ teams (or Norse), putting skilled players from your line rotation on the line helps everybody improve, much in the same way as you build a comp rotation despite the presence of a Thrower. It's easiest to skill players with low SPP requirements; every rookie is 2TD away from Block or whatever. On defense, it's hardest to skill your players on the line. So put the guy who's close to going up off the line, and he'll progress and get one of the above power skills, and then he won't be close to progressing anymore. So if you give him the power skill that gives him the best condition for the D-line, you'll help the next guy improve too. Even before you factor in the money saved on dead players, it's extremely unlikely that the opportunity to buff your schmoes won't lead to a net skill gain despite whatever smattering of dead skills your team eventually suffers.

As far as Fend on the LOS goes, I'll only advocate that if you're talking about just one guy with a pair of Stand Firm players to flank him, or if your team is so developed that you have to put two-skill players on the LOS (I only ever get there with elves and bashers with dedicated lines).

[Purplegoo]

I did write a long detailed reply (pointing out the folly there, at least in my view), but it's best I just say; no, still very much disagreed, and duck out!

[Grumbledook]

don't agree that it is folly to post an opposing side of a tactical stance

posting to say that you typed it out and then decided against it instead of just not posting it is folly though ;]

I'm interested to hear why you think that it is as I agree with matt in this case

[Khail]

I too am interested - I tend to build players for the LOS (I play DE mostly these days) and I'm always interested in a viewpoint contrary to my own with a solid argument behind it.

[Warpstone]

Voted F, because it depends on the TV/lethality in play.

With Chaos Pact at low TV and against Elves, the big guys or blodge/sidesteppers man the LOS to soak up the middle. Against bashers, it's the rookie marauders who I award the "eat dirt" skill.

[mattgslater]

A access linemen get the best survival value for skilling: both Dodge and Side Step blow Block out of the water when it comes to not getting hurt on opening blocks. They're also better off the D-line on the following turn. If you have to stand up, you're probably not using Block or Wrestle on your turn. But if you have to stand up and can dodge on a 2 (most A access players), you can stand-and-dodge right after your automatic and easy/critical actions, with relative confidence even if you don't have/can't spend a TRR. And if you have SS/AG4, you know you can dodge into the clear, so you don't get blocked into the Rat's Dilemma, of "do I stand and get hit, or do I wait for the important stuff and then try a 3+ at end of turn, assuming I get to act at all?" This is in addition to the plethora of other benefits these skills provide, like covering big guys with ST3/Dodge or anchoring a downfield cage with Side Step.

On top of that, you've got to consider the difference in player costs. A Skaven or Human lino costs the same as the Apoth. If he dies, especially in the first half, you may not be able to save him. If he gets hurt, you can cut him. Moreover, he's only got G skills, so if you're putting him on the line, there's maybe one skill that pulls its weight and another one that's relevant (unless he doubles). Elf linemen, by contrast, have three relevant skills, so you want to keep building and building. And they're expensive; until you start climbing your curve, you're loath to cut them or refuse to Apoth them, even rookies. Pro Elf linos are a little cheaper, but you wanna talk about a team with management issues.... JMs aren't bad, but you need to be building a bench if you don't want to go man-down all the time. Worse, you can't afford to hire replacement linemen (apart from the 1-2 you start with) 'cause you can't afford to start with all/most of your positionals, unlike a Rat team, which can just replace line-deaths with that JM who got a Cas or something.

So I think what's really going on is that at high development there are two kinds of ST3 d-lines, at least for me.