Rebuilding skaven team at mid-high TV. Perpetual league.

[Porkus_Maximus]

This skaven team is part of a perpetual league so in theory I have as many games as it will take to get them back in shape. In theory. Playing skaven in Cyanide's perpetual MM league is like playing Russian Roulette and eventually my luck ran out, multiple players picked up -stat injuries in the same game, I have no bench left and my treasury is almost dry.

Team as it currently stands;

RO - claw, guard, stand firm (niggle)
SV - claw, mighty blow, guard, tackle (-AV)
SV - guard, mighty blow, tackle, piling on (niggle)
GR - block, sidestep, diving tackle (-ST)
GR - block, sidestep, diving tackle (-ST, MNG)
GR - wrestle, strip ball, horns
GR - block, two heads, big hand, leap
LR - kick, block
LR - +ST, block, fend
LR - guard, claw, block (-MA)
LR - wrestle (-AV)
LR - No skills X2
TH - Accurate, block

4 RRs
1 Apoth
10 FF
90k treasury
209TV for their next match

Would you consider this team worth salvaging? Playing @ 170+ with only 11 players seems like suicide. I feel like I'm caught in a endless cycle; I can't get my TV low enough (to avoid spiralling expenses and MB infested teams) because most of my TV is invested in my positional players. I can't cut my positional players from the team because I can't afford to replace them. I can't afford to replace them because of casualties eating up my treasury. I suppose I could cut all my linerats except for the kicker and just run with journeymen until I can afford to fill out my team? Maybe cut the RO? If it were possible I'd like to discard a bit of my FF... 10 FF just feels like unnecessary bloat but the only way to get rid of it would be to concede a handful of games which doesn't feel very sporting.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, I see your problem, but I don't think that your issue as a development issue is necessarily a killer or necessarily demands major changes. You just have one sucky game to survive, preferably against an opponent worth more than 1.5M. I'd fire the ST1 guy, maybe. That saves 60k TV after you replace him, and 90k-140k until then. Who else isn't pulling his weight?

What do you do for your D-LOS? I mean, besides Journeymen. You can't win on the DL against anything serious, so whatever you put up there will get mauled over and over. The best thing your DL can hope for is to maybe just get pushed around sometimes, and then form a good hedge, and you don't have any skills to do that with. So you should put up schmoes until you have positioning skills, except against elves and the like.

Maybe you could replace a Blitzer. I think you have an overabundance of killer skills, and a dearth of hedging skills. You can't stick in; you don't need that much Claw/MB/Piling On. Tackle and Claw don't usually combo well, though that's a usually. Where's the Stand Firm? Are you getting partitioned a lot? If you are, and if you can fix that, you can probably cut your body count significantly.

Don't fire any linemen. You basically have three kinds of linemen: the kicker, the guys who are too valuable to cut (+ST or Guard/Claw), and the guys who don't add any more TV than a Journeyman. I guess you could cut the Guard guy; he's a good player, but 130k is a lot to pay. But I would keep him, so I could rebuild one of the Blitzers to combo with him in the backfield. Then again, I wouldn't have given him Claw, but I think I remember the story, so c'est la vie.

It's too bad you don't have 90k now. If you did, I'd say you should fire the missing Blitzer and hire a new one. But as is, I still think you should save up to do that, unless he's very close to 76 SPP. You've got a Linerat you've built to fill the same role; there's no good reason not to get a new Blitzer after this game and build him up.

For the next game, I'd consider not taking the Journeyman. It'll save you 10k winnings, and it's not like this team is too slow to play man-down. Then, if you can play an opponent worth 1.8 or more, you just pay an optional penalty of 30k in inducements to get your Merc. It's not like you're looking for a new lino to hire.

[Porkus_Maximus]

I edited my original post to reflect the updated roster since I just played another game, and because I'd forgotten to note down a few injuries. Unfortunately... my 2nd SS/DT GR also picked up a smashed collar bone. I won my last game although my winnings could have been better; rolled 2 + 1 winning + 1 FAME = 40k, unfortunately there is no option to re-roll the dice in Cyanide's game so now I'm up to 90k treasury.

Could you explain what you mean by "hedging" skills? Do you mean forming a line to stall cages etc? Other than stand firm on my SV what would you suggest? I know that tackle doesn't necessarily combo well with claw, but it was a case of necessity. At one point I did have a couple of wrestle/tackle linerats but they died and I was left with only a single tackle player, after getting absolutely DESTROYED by a well developed dark elf team I decided that I needed tackle on both SV ASAP. Most teams tend to have at least 1 or 2 blodge players and it helps if my can-opener can bring them down.

I know that skaven really shouldn't entertain a bashing game except vs the softest of opponents, but I've found that having a couple of damage dealers is a necessity due to the match-making environment. I try to use them as precision blitzers and since I only get to make a blitz + 1 or 2 blocks per turn (if I'm lucky) I want them to do as much damage as possible. Keeping TV lean and trim is standard practise in match-making, ergo a lot of the high AV teams tend to play with minimal reserves or even no reserves at all! The last thing a dwarf player expects is having 2-3 of his players KO'ed or injured by skaven, and slow bashy teams really don't respond well to having only 9 players on the pitch.

The blitzer with a fractured skull is on 73spp, so I'm really unsure if I should cut him. The rat ogre is on 48spp so he's also close, but if he doesn't roll another double to get block I'd be very tempted to cut him. He'd still be a useful player but I don't think I could afford to have all that TV tied up in 1 player, especially since he has a niggling injury. I do have 90k now but since another GR picked up -ST I'm tempted to replace one of them instead. My roster is up to 14 with 13 active players, but my TV is 209 which means I could face some very nasty teams.

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... that does change things. Keep the Blitzer. Maybe fire the ST1 GR who's coming back and hire a rookie? That leaves you without SS/DT, but ST1 hurts.

[Porkus_Maximus]

Managed to get another game in. Blitzer scored a TD and got stand firm, although the other blitzer is quite a way off from skilling up (57spp). Linerat with -AV died on turn 1 block 1 so I guess I don't have to worry about him any more. Treasury is up to 120k so I'm cutting one of the gutter runners and hiring a rookie. Contemplating cutting the 2nd as it would drop me down a bracket for spiralling expenses, although I'm not entirely confident playing with only 3 GRs when 1 of them is a rookie.

EDIT: Back to back games vs dwarves has taken a significant toll vs my team and they are now down to 11 players. Unfortunately my LoS linesmen keep getting killed very early and I'm not going to waste an apothecary on them with 12+ turns left in the game... but then of course no one else suffers significant injuries. In retrospect, A LOT of my linesmen deaths could have been apothed. Got 50k banked but I really need to save that to replace the ST1 GR, although my spiralling expenses are so high that I'd need at least 60k winnings before I can afford him.

EDIT2:

Things are looking grim. Both ST1 GRs have been replaced (and one of the new recruits got +ST!) but the two headed, big handed GR has picked up -AV and a niggle. He's a massive liability and will need to be replaced as soon as I can afford it. Even with an 11 player roster my TV is too high (about 180) to really get any kind of "recovery" game, so I'll most likely have to cut the rat ogre and possibly the SV to bring my TV down to about 140. Assuming I do this my games are going to be extremely 1 dimensional since my team will effectively be 4 GRs, 1 thrower and a bunch of linesmen. I'll have to be extremely careful with my spp distribution so that I can build up a treasury without advancing my team, then I'll need to try to re-develop my blitzers without raising my TV too high.

[Master Wang]

Play against some Wood Elves.

[Porkus_Maximus]

Thank you for those words of wisdom Master Wang. Unfortunately I cannot chose my opponents as we are randomly matched together and 90% of matchmaking teams are either orc, chaos or dwarf.

I've had to take some pretty drastic measures over the last few games. My Rat Ogre, both storm vermin and my two headed, big handed GR have all been cut from the team to drastically reduce my TV back to a bracket where I can safely rebuild the team. My TV is down to 150 with journeymen but I'm seriously considering cutting the guard and +ST linerats to lower it even further. If I can get it down to about 130 I could theoretically rebuild some storm vermin to about 16spp and buy a couple of reserve players while keeping my TV at about 150-170. Theoretically.

[Master Wang]

Thank you for those words of wisdom Master Wang.

You're welcome I guess my words were pretty pointless, though they've given me a nice signature

I wouldn't cut those linemen as they'll die/get injured eventually anyway. Plus, for now, aren't they your way through the opponent's defensive line? Having said that, how often does the Guard one's Claw come into play? Not a lot I'd guess, maybe fire him when you get Guard on a rookie Blitzer.

What is your current roster?

[Porkus_Maximus]

Current roster as it stands;

GR: Wrestle, strip ball, horns, dauntless
GR: +ST, wrestle
GR: big hand
GR: rookie
TH: accurate, block
LR: Guard, claw, block (-MA)
LR: +ST, block, fend
LR: Kick, block

4 RRs
1 Apoth
10 FF

I get 3 journeymen to use as my defensive LoS which brings my total TV up to 150. When I had the rat ogre and storm vermin working together, the linerat did get good opportunities to use his claw but not so much any more. The reason I am tempted to cut the developed linerats is that once I re-buy the SV, their TV will start to push me into brackets where I will face dangerous quantities of mighty blow, which isn't really ideal for developing rookie players. If my developed LRs have to die eventually then so be it but I don't want my new rookies to be collateral damage.

[mattgslater]

This actually makes me want to write in a house-rule for my league banning the ditching of FF as a penalty for well-developed winning teams.

[Porkus_Maximus]

Having a mauled team with 10-11 FF is pretty damn annoying, but I guess it's compounded by playing an AV7 team with no money. If I was playing a slightly tougher team I'd probably just re-buy all the players I need and keep on truckin', rather than having to cut about 50TV worth of players. Eventually my FF has lowered to a more reasonable 7, after losing a few miss-matched games. Funnily enough I got matched against some wood elves today. Wood elves that were about 45 TV higher. Unfortunately the inducement options in Cyanide's game leave A LOT to be desired, so I couldn't buy anything that would really make an impact. As expected I lost horribly 1-3.

[Master Wang]

That your FF has generally remained high (recent games excluded) indicates that you're winning games even with a battered team, right? I've always thought Skaven were kind of a team holding together exercise rather than a team building one. So I guess you are doing well.

Do you use your thrower? If he's not integral, he could be cut. It won't save you loads of TV, but will help. You could also run with only three re-rolls if you are really desperate, but I like four. I think the +ST lineman should stay. As should the one with Kick. As I said earlier, cut the Guard one when the new blitzers get that skill.

Bit of an aside, but why did you take Dauntless on the Horns GR? Do they combine differently in the Cyanide game? Probably would have got Tackle myself.

[Porkus_Maximus]

I know that horns is applied before dauntless in LRB5, but I still like to take the combination as it makes dauntless more reliable. On the rare occasions that I am up against ST2 players it also gives me a guaranteed 2 dice blitz. In retrospect tackle could have been a better choice.

I do use my thrower, although I only used him on offence (when I had the option of a reserve bench). He only makes 1-2 passes or hand-offs per game so he doesn't gain many SPP, I'm quite happy to keep him with just accurate and block. I know that GRs are naturally better at handling a ball with AG4, but I find that sure hands and pass have saved me quite a few re-rolls in the past. On the (very) rare occasions that I come up against teams wood elves, other skaven or dark elves, I prefer to run the ball with him due to his protection from strip ball.

EDIT: My latest rookie GR rolled 1+1 and I'm not sure what to give him. So far my GRs have;

1. wrestle, strip ball, horns, dauntless
2. +ST, wrestle
3. Big hand
4. 1+1=?

I'm leaning towards two-heads for running general interference but I'm also tempted by a blodge, guard, sidestep player. I don't really have much experience putting guard on GRs though so I dunno if it's worth-while.

Another element of Cyanide's game that is making team redevelopment quite frustrating is that you can't re-roll your winnings dice at the end of the game. I just had quite a satisfying win where I was a 20TV underdog to a chaos team but unfortunately I only earned 30k from the game.

[Grumbledook]

guard is great on gutter runners for a mobile assist, especially if you can run him deep to their ball carrier and then blitz with your horns/dauntless one