Hey there TFF, I've been lurking around for a while and finally decided I'd throw this out to get some thoughts on.
Perpetual leagues second season is coming up, I won our end of season tournament as well as finishing placed first with my human team and I'm looking for some thoughts on how to develop them further.
Here's the team,
Ogre, Guard/PilingOn 29 SPP
Thrower Accurate/Safethrow/kick/skill I haven't chosen yet 52 SPP
Blitzer Guard 6 SPP
Blitzer Guard/MightyBlow/Tackle 33 SPP
Blitzer +Ag/+Ma/Surehands/Tackle 59 SPP
Blitzer +Str/MigtyBlow/JumpUp/-MA 36 SPP
Catcher +Ag/Block/Sidestep 36 SPP
Catcher +Ma/Block/Sidestep 49 SPP
Catcher Block 13 SPP
Catcher rookie
Lineman Block/Dauntless 20 SPP
Lineman Block 15 SPP
Lineman Block 13 SPP
Lineman Block 11 SPP
I've got 12 FF, 3 AC and 3 Cl, 6 re-rolls and for winning our tournament I won a TV free re-roll that can be used up until our next tournament where it is lost. As well my ogre has the fan favorite skill for my team winning our leagues favorite team award, 340k banked. My TV is 2,170,000.
So! The most pressing choice is a skill for my thrower, since I gave her kick to have a reason to field her on the pitch on offense I'm thinking wrestle or block. Another option is to get leader and drop RR's. The plan for the +S blitzer is piling on or frenzy for her next skill. I'm also torn on wether to give my +M catcher sprint in hopes of another movement up or get diving tackle which was my original development plan.
Long term I'm thinking of buying another thrower within my next couple of matches and hoping for early doubles for strong arm or agi up as I can only for see my current thrower getting one more skill anytime soon. the +Ag blitzer will probably be getting mighty blow on normals and dodge on doubles. I'm also planning on buying another lineman to turn into a wrestle/tackle/stripball safety. My current linemen I'm not sure on other than I'll most likely roster 2 block/dauntless for big guy hitting.
Human team development
-
mattgslater
- King of Comedy
- Posts: 7758
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
- Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy
Re: Human team development
Stand Firm next for the Ogre, Block for the Thrower, Fend for the Linos. Your Blitzers aren't close to going up, but when they do, spam Stand Firm and you'll have some gnarly formations.
Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
-
Spasmbot
- Rookie
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 am
Re: Human team development
For my thrower I was leaning to block, and ended up taking it. To elaborate on my thoughts compared to other skills here's what went through my mind;
Wrestle helps the thrower double as a safety, but also does not help her mobility if someone comes for a blitz and gets a block result. Block although it most of the time won't help stop someone with the ball that has caught me out of position will allow her to stay on her feet that much longer, and obviously if that block result does come up on a 1 die blitz at least you've still got a tackle zone on the ball. Which may be much better than putting both players prone, especially in the case of fast high agi players that're likely to put you in a thrower has to make a blitz situation.
I considered dump off shortly but this thrower is so late into her career that it would be pointless to try to that kind of development now. I think that at 76 SPP she'll be getting tackle or strip ball, and if I manage to keep her rostered to 176 without doubles will finish developing her into a block/tackle/strip ball player. I'm a big fan of turning human and Orc throwers into safeties though, because there are so few skills worth taking unless you get doubles or an agi up to knock back your development of the player.
Wrestle helps the thrower double as a safety, but also does not help her mobility if someone comes for a blitz and gets a block result. Block although it most of the time won't help stop someone with the ball that has caught me out of position will allow her to stay on her feet that much longer, and obviously if that block result does come up on a 1 die blitz at least you've still got a tackle zone on the ball. Which may be much better than putting both players prone, especially in the case of fast high agi players that're likely to put you in a thrower has to make a blitz situation.
I considered dump off shortly but this thrower is so late into her career that it would be pointless to try to that kind of development now. I think that at 76 SPP she'll be getting tackle or strip ball, and if I manage to keep her rostered to 176 without doubles will finish developing her into a block/tackle/strip ball player. I'm a big fan of turning human and Orc throwers into safeties though, because there are so few skills worth taking unless you get doubles or an agi up to knock back your development of the player.
Reason: ''
-
mattgslater
- King of Comedy
- Posts: 7758
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
- Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy
Re: Human team development
Block is definitely better for that player than Wrestle. Keeping that one upright is critical, because you need your kicker/passer in all phases of the game. Maybe one could argue that you should have taken Wrestle on one or more Linemen (in fact, I'd argue that spam Wrestle is better on the LOS if you plan to cede it, and with no Stand Firm you have no other choice).
Dump-Off +AG3 really wants Nerves. If you're going to be playing this team forever, then maybe Dump Off is a #4 on your #2 Thrower, after Block, Acc and Nerves. Maybe... it still has to compete with Fend, which doesn't require Nerves, and gets taken out on a double or +stat.
Ever wish you could get value for Shadowing? With a Block/SS/MA9 Catcher at 49 SPP, you may get your chance.
Dump-Off +AG3 really wants Nerves. If you're going to be playing this team forever, then maybe Dump Off is a #4 on your #2 Thrower, after Block, Acc and Nerves. Maybe... it still has to compete with Fend, which doesn't require Nerves, and gets taken out on a double or +stat.
Ever wish you could get value for Shadowing? With a Block/SS/MA9 Catcher at 49 SPP, you may get your chance.
Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
-
Carnis
- Super Star
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:50 pm
Re: Human team development
For my part, I'd drop cheers and coaches to 0 for league games and to 1 for both for cup games. The rrs I'd drop to 3, but you could be a RR spammer, and have use for up to 7 I dont know how though..
Reason: ''
-
mattgslater
- King of Comedy
- Posts: 7758
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
- Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy
Re: Human team development
I'm with Carnis, sort of.
1) Keep the CLs and ACs. They're inferior to the RR in terms of getting you RRs, but they take away opposing RRs sometimes, and sometimes drives pivot on early failures.
2) Get that other Thrower! Having two Throwers lets you cover the pitch with Sure Hands! Give him Accurate and Kickoff Return as fast as possible, set him about 4 squares back in the centerfield column, and use him as a retriever in case the ball goes shallow, so he can pitch it to the AG4 Catcher at deep fullback ("ace"). If the ball goes deep, you can use him as part of your cage, or you can get it with him anyway, if you really need the comp. Using space and mobility to protect the ball for a turn gives your cage time to get a foothold before it has to defend a specific point, and also lets you send one more man up to the front, which is very nice if you're trying to chain for free downfield blocks or 1TTDs. I suspect you're not the chaining-type, though, as you have no Frenzy or Grab.
3) Dump 2-3 TRRs. Here's the formula for RRs in my book.
Minimum: 2
AG3 team with <2x SH, <4x Block: +1
Team pushes risky play-style w/o RR skills: +1
Peak development: +1
Got all that, still doesn't feel like enough: +1, then stop. If you need more, fire one instead, and try to figure out what you're doing wrong.
Humans with 2x Thrower are: 2, plus one for peak development, plus maybe one for having to make more 3+ rolls than most teams, and definitely if you're just the kind of guy who needs TRRs. So, probably about 4. You have 6x AC/CL, which is the same value as a TRR and not quite as good. So you should fire 3 TRRs, or at least 2.
3) Take a Thrower. Man, having two Throwers just totally changes the game, especially on a team like this with four outlets.
1) Keep the CLs and ACs. They're inferior to the RR in terms of getting you RRs, but they take away opposing RRs sometimes, and sometimes drives pivot on early failures.
2) Get that other Thrower! Having two Throwers lets you cover the pitch with Sure Hands! Give him Accurate and Kickoff Return as fast as possible, set him about 4 squares back in the centerfield column, and use him as a retriever in case the ball goes shallow, so he can pitch it to the AG4 Catcher at deep fullback ("ace"). If the ball goes deep, you can use him as part of your cage, or you can get it with him anyway, if you really need the comp. Using space and mobility to protect the ball for a turn gives your cage time to get a foothold before it has to defend a specific point, and also lets you send one more man up to the front, which is very nice if you're trying to chain for free downfield blocks or 1TTDs. I suspect you're not the chaining-type, though, as you have no Frenzy or Grab.
3) Dump 2-3 TRRs. Here's the formula for RRs in my book.
Minimum: 2
AG3 team with <2x SH, <4x Block: +1
Team pushes risky play-style w/o RR skills: +1
Peak development: +1
Got all that, still doesn't feel like enough: +1, then stop. If you need more, fire one instead, and try to figure out what you're doing wrong.
Humans with 2x Thrower are: 2, plus one for peak development, plus maybe one for having to make more 3+ rolls than most teams, and definitely if you're just the kind of guy who needs TRRs. So, probably about 4. You have 6x AC/CL, which is the same value as a TRR and not quite as good. So you should fire 3 TRRs, or at least 2.
3) Take a Thrower. Man, having two Throwers just totally changes the game, especially on a team like this with four outlets.
Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
-
Spasmbot
- Rookie
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 am
Re: Human team development
I have so many TRR's because my TV is one of the higher in the league, dropping down to 3 or 4 means chef really puts the hurt on me. I actually had one match where I managed to use all 6 in a half, so I can't say they're getting totally wasted either.
I should add that I'm most likely going to drop one when our 2nd season starts up, I'm planning on filling my last 2 roster slots with another lino and the 2nd thrower, lino for wrestle/tackle/stripball in a perfect world.
For the Ma9 catcher I was planning on giving her diving tackle next as it also helps me shut down the mobility of ag4 players and high movement players, shadowing would be the non stat up or non doubles 76 SPP skill.
I should add that I'm most likely going to drop one when our 2nd season starts up, I'm planning on filling my last 2 roster slots with another lino and the 2nd thrower, lino for wrestle/tackle/stripball in a perfect world.
For the Ma9 catcher I was planning on giving her diving tackle next as it also helps me shut down the mobility of ag4 players and high movement players, shadowing would be the non stat up or non doubles 76 SPP skill.
Reason: ''
-
mattgslater
- King of Comedy
- Posts: 7758
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
- Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy
Re: Human team development
Hmmm... I wouldn't take one, then the other. It's either-or in my book, with Tackle at 76 in either case.
Let's do the comparison. I'm quite curious.
First, when DT works, it costs 3 squares of movement. It works 1/3 of the time, so whenever it's challenged it costs a pretty uniform 1 square of movement, assuming you'd use it (the same assumption need be made with Shadowing). When Shadowing works, it costs some number of squares between 1 and -1, probably with a total negative overall effect on movement because the opponent controls the direction of follow (at least in theory).
DT is easier in math terms. It either works, fails, or fails and leads to a success on a re-roll. Even then, it's a little fuzzy: the "third way" is a net loss if the DT is on a skilled dodge into the clear with no other dodges en route.
Here are the odds that you will use DT to get a turnover, based on the target number of the attempt; this does not include the chance of turning over with-or-without DT. The first number is for a single "naked" d6, the second for a roll "covered" by a re-roll of some sort.
0+: No effect
1+: 1/6 (naked) or 1/12 (covered)
2+: 1/3 or 2/9
3+: 1/3
4+: 1/3 or 4/9
5+: 1/6 or 1/4
6+: No effect
Shadowing is a little more convoluted. It involves MA comparison, and odds on what could be multiple consecutive dodge attempts that care about whether zero, one or two re-rolls are involved.
Here's how the math works on the chance to use Shadowing at MA9, and in parentheses, the next three dodges, rounded to the most convenient fraction (for example, 169/324 is about 1/2).
MA10: 5/12 (1/6, 1/15, 1/36)
MA9: 7/12 (1/3, 1/5, 1/9)
MA8: 13/18 (1/2, 3/8, 1/4)
MA7: 5/6 (25/36, 7/12, 1/2)
MA6: 11/12 (5/6, 3/4, 25/36)
MA5: 35/36 (pretty much automatic)
MA4: Automatic
Of course, the moving player has dodge rolls to make. But I'm going to bed, sorry. Note, however, that with Shadowing this guy is basically the black hole of Ghouls, Zons and Stunties. He's also great against Break Tackle Big Guys, because BT only works once, while Shadowing keeps going and going.... Funny, this guy and a BT BON would just about completely shut each other down... until the BON finally got a pow.
Let's do the comparison. I'm quite curious.
First, when DT works, it costs 3 squares of movement. It works 1/3 of the time, so whenever it's challenged it costs a pretty uniform 1 square of movement, assuming you'd use it (the same assumption need be made with Shadowing). When Shadowing works, it costs some number of squares between 1 and -1, probably with a total negative overall effect on movement because the opponent controls the direction of follow (at least in theory).
DT is easier in math terms. It either works, fails, or fails and leads to a success on a re-roll. Even then, it's a little fuzzy: the "third way" is a net loss if the DT is on a skilled dodge into the clear with no other dodges en route.
Here are the odds that you will use DT to get a turnover, based on the target number of the attempt; this does not include the chance of turning over with-or-without DT. The first number is for a single "naked" d6, the second for a roll "covered" by a re-roll of some sort.
0+: No effect
1+: 1/6 (naked) or 1/12 (covered)
2+: 1/3 or 2/9
3+: 1/3
4+: 1/3 or 4/9
5+: 1/6 or 1/4
6+: No effect
Shadowing is a little more convoluted. It involves MA comparison, and odds on what could be multiple consecutive dodge attempts that care about whether zero, one or two re-rolls are involved.
Here's how the math works on the chance to use Shadowing at MA9, and in parentheses, the next three dodges, rounded to the most convenient fraction (for example, 169/324 is about 1/2).
MA10: 5/12 (1/6, 1/15, 1/36)
MA9: 7/12 (1/3, 1/5, 1/9)
MA8: 13/18 (1/2, 3/8, 1/4)
MA7: 5/6 (25/36, 7/12, 1/2)
MA6: 11/12 (5/6, 3/4, 25/36)
MA5: 35/36 (pretty much automatic)
MA4: Automatic
Of course, the moving player has dodge rolls to make. But I'm going to bed, sorry. Note, however, that with Shadowing this guy is basically the black hole of Ghouls, Zons and Stunties. He's also great against Break Tackle Big Guys, because BT only works once, while Shadowing keeps going and going.... Funny, this guy and a BT BON would just about completely shut each other down... until the BON finally got a pow.
Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
-
Smeborg
- Legend
- Posts: 3544
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:02 am
- Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Re: Human team development
Hi Spasmbot, and congrats on turning from lurker to poster. Here are a couple of suggestions:
(a) Your team seems (very) light on Tackle, so it may be worth considering Tackle as the second skill on the Linos (rather than the more conventional Fend).
(b) I have found Diving Catch a very effective skill on Human Catchers in practice.
(c) Perhaps too late for this season, but next time you play Humies, it may be worth considering Wrestle instead of Block (on either the Catchers or the Linos, but not both).
(a) Your team seems (very) light on Tackle, so it may be worth considering Tackle as the second skill on the Linos (rather than the more conventional Fend).
(b) I have found Diving Catch a very effective skill on Human Catchers in practice.
(c) Perhaps too late for this season, but next time you play Humies, it may be worth considering Wrestle instead of Block (on either the Catchers or the Linos, but not both).
Reason: ''
Smeborg the Fleshless
-
Spasmbot
- Rookie
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 am
Re: Human team development
A small update before I let this fall off to the depths of the boards;
I played two more matches and managed to get my S4 blitzer killed, which in the end was alright since it dropped my TV significantly and I wasn't getting the 200k or so out of her that she cost. The MA 9 catcher got shadowing and the AG4 catcher got diving tackle, together they really are a black hole! Watching MA5&6 players sweat when the shadower gets on them is hilarious. Other than that my non dauntless linemen picked up tackle and I filled up my roster by picking up a second thrower and another lineman. I also ended up dropping a re-roll to put me down to 5.
On the wrestle vs block for linemen, since our league is one with an open and perpetual format and Humans have so many positionals to skill up I decided to go for block under the idea that it would generate them casualties against teams without as much development.
The Humans are retiring for now though, I'm going to be playing a Chaos team (Mighty Blow ahoy!) this time around for a change of pace. And to be honest I found the humans a frustrating roster to coach.
I played two more matches and managed to get my S4 blitzer killed, which in the end was alright since it dropped my TV significantly and I wasn't getting the 200k or so out of her that she cost. The MA 9 catcher got shadowing and the AG4 catcher got diving tackle, together they really are a black hole! Watching MA5&6 players sweat when the shadower gets on them is hilarious. Other than that my non dauntless linemen picked up tackle and I filled up my roster by picking up a second thrower and another lineman. I also ended up dropping a re-roll to put me down to 5.
On the wrestle vs block for linemen, since our league is one with an open and perpetual format and Humans have so many positionals to skill up I decided to go for block under the idea that it would generate them casualties against teams without as much development.
The Humans are retiring for now though, I'm going to be playing a Chaos team (Mighty Blow ahoy!) this time around for a change of pace. And to be honest I found the humans a frustrating roster to coach.
Reason: ''