Vampire offensive and defensive formations - advice please

[Porkus_Maximus]

OK so I've searched the forum and found plenty of threads discussing starting rosters and team building but there are very few, if any threads actually detailing vampire plays. I know that vampires are a very reactionary team and their success can often depend on how often hypno gaze is effective but I'd really like to get some input from more experienced or knowledgeable players to get an idea of what typical formations they might use and who they might use them against, in particular I seem to be having issues with AG4 teams. So far I have a team that's gone 5-3-3, the losses were of no concern to me because the dice were just atrocious but the draw games were quite challenging.

All 3 games were 1-1 draws against Dark Elves, High Elves and Pro Elves and all 3 games were very similar. On my drive the elves would slow me down with a stand-off defence which was very effective. I can't move into contact like a bash team because my thralls will get pulped, only my vampires are agile enough to manoeuvre but they're not really fast enough and hypo gaze tends to be a 4+ because of tackle zone modifiers. Eventually I'd break through due to a combination of player attrition, hypo gaze and a few risky moves on turn 7-8 which would not give the elves time to respond. On the elves' drive they would score in anything between 4-8 turns depending on how (in)effective my defence was, either way not enough turns to respond so the game would end 1-1. Besides 1 vampire with tackle and mighty blow I don't really have the tools to cause significant casualties vs elves, so even if I received first and hit them for all 8 turns they'd have more than enough players to be a threat in the second half.

SO... what kind of basic defensive formations would you guys use against an AG4 team assuming you have 7 thralls and 4 vampires on the pitch? Would you be comfortable putting the vamps in the first line of defence to take any blitzes or would you prefer to keep them back as safety players? I've been playing Nurgle recently and compared to them Vampire defence feels like a sieve but maybe that's just because I'm doing it wrong. I currently have 3 blodging vamps and a block/tackle/MB vamp so unfortunately I don't have any sidestep to cover the sidelines. I have 2 Dirty player thralls and 1 kicker, the rest are rookie fodder.

[Der_Doodle]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29010&hilit=defensive

there you got a couple of good defensive formations that should work for nearly everyteam (atleast some of them)

[mattgslater]

WARNING: I'm constantly going to reference my field position terminology. If you want to know what I mean and it doesn't make intuitive sense, diagram it on paper or on a pitch and you'll see what I mean. My notation is: the number of squares to the right or left of the centerfield column on the pitch, then the number of rows behind scrimmage. So R3-0 is just inside the wide zone, on the line of scrimmage on the defense's right side (facing the offense). L7-12 is the left corner of the end zone. Reference the link so kindly posted by Der_Doodle for the meaning of Ziggurat and Inverted Ziggurat and any other such formation.

My super Zig mojo doesn't work with crap lines; that's why I like High Elves and Big Green. However, you have no choice but to run a crap line, so your interior will be soft if you don't bolster it. I'd say against heavy teams you should pack in a bit; you don't want to allow a downfield cage, but a trickle is okay, because of your Hypnogaze.

Here's what I'd do on D against slow bash teams. It's built from years of kicking butt with Catcher-Free High Elves, and I've had plenty of early ST increases, so there are parallels in the first 5 games or so of the HE season, and after the Vamps peak out. Caveat: I've never run Vamps, and only faced them a couple times.

1) Run an asymmetric "123" line, with all your LOSses (I object to the term "LOSers" but I want to keep the irony) on one side, one hugging the hashmarks. For these purposes, we'll call that the right side, but feel free to flip it.
2) Put a standard "zig" wing on the right side, with your flanker at R5-2 (on the line is -0) and your winger at R6-3. If you have a Guard Thrall, then that's your flanker and your winger is a Vamp with Dodge (and ideally Block).
3) Parallel to the Winger or one row in front of him, put down a 303 screen and some kind of screen to protect it. You can totally use a pair of 303 screens, at -2 and -3, to create a "trap screen" formation: you can't blitz a hole open. It may be worthwhile to put the leftmost safety (L3-3) and put him back another square into the -4 row.
3a) If you have two SS Vamps (presumably also with Block and/or Dodge), you can instead put them at R3-2 and L5-2, putting some other Vamp at L3-2 and guys (anybody but your Dirty Player) in at centerfield, 0-2. The safeties then go at R1-3 (Kicker or Wrenzy) and L2-3 (Dirty Player).

This does let them get a "runaround" on you, but it's surprisingly worthless. They have no choice but to veer right with everything they've got, and you're actually pretty evenly balanced, if you don't count the LOSses. If you have a Kicker, they'll set up ready for you to kick left or deep left, you'll kick deep left, shallow left or deep right, and it's anybody's ball. It's not so hot against elves or rats. I'm not convinced it's perfect with Thralls; it works nicely with rookie elves, because the LOS players can pick themselves up and dodge into a more meaningful position. But Thralls, not so much.

Against speed, lockout is imperative, because you can pressure very well (after turn 1) and can't really catch breakaways. Once you have two SS Vamps, skip a Guard Thrall in favor of SS, and run an inverted zig. That's what it's there for. It's hard for Vamps (or any other non-elf team) to pull off, but I guess you could commit a Vamp to the line. It's really intended for elf-on-elf (or rat, or human) mayhem. The only ways in on an inverted zig are either to KO/Cas the SS noseguard (on one hit, mind you), or to make multiple dodges, or to Leap. Some teams will get in anyway; the two solutions to that (given your lack of Diving Tackle) are to kick shallow, or to set your flanker and safety one more square back (R5-4, R2-4), leaving your winger and midfield in the -2 row.

Keep in mind, inverted Zigs work okay against bash too. They don't give you any edge, but the real goal is not to get partitioned and to force the cage to form behind the LOS. That's where the Zig falls down: a good heavy game can tear up the end-midfielder connection and swallow one flank while building a midfield cage, while you're not fast enough to get to the retriever before he can deliver the ball into it. Then, facing a midfield cage, hypnogaze has to work, or you can't get that ST4 blitz. With a good partitioning effort that takes two Vamps out of action, you just won't have the manpower to even try.

[mattgslater]

On offense, try to blitz/hypnogaze your way into a midfield cage. Run an "Ace" offense, with a retriever and a deliverer. Because your Ace deliverer must be AG4, and thus a Vamp, you want a midfield cage you can get rolling with immediately in case you fail a Bloodlust roll. Getting downfield is important; your Bloodlust and low AV means you never know how many guys you're going to have next turn. With squishy teams it's often important to register your TDs whenever you can get them, and this is probably doubly true for you.

[Porkus_Maximus]

Thanks for the detailed post Matt, it has given me a lot to think about.

[Uldreg]

I am trying to understand the defense referenced here. What do you mean by 303 screen? I understand the positioning coordinates. But i thought 303 referred to the LOS, and i thought you were refering to backfield positioning... If i get it you are talkinig about an asymetrical LOS. I apologize if the terminology has been mentioned in another thread.

[mattgslater]

303 refers to the breadth of the field. 0 is the centerfield column, 3 is the column just inside the WZ marker, 7 is along the sideline. You can use it to refer to the LOS, yes. In this case, the LOS is at R1-0, R2-0, R3-0, or a 123 line. If it were on the left side, it would be a 321 line. The 303 screen is in the -2 or -3 row, at, say, L3-2, 0-2, R3-2. In this case, you could think of it as a 3036 screen, or 80% of a "spine" (63036), with the winger at R6-3.

These coordinates include a simple set of line techniques. The translation of line techs from American football DLs to the linebackers and secondary doesn't work because the line techniques in American football are geared off of OLs and gaps, while coverage players tend to think in terms of sections of the field or route assignments. But in BB defense, all structures can play out with the same terminology: everybody trades in squares in BB, while in AmF space is absolute for some guys and relative for others. Also, since there are only seven line techniques in BB, as opposed to 15 in AmF, it's easier to apply them everywhere. It doesn't hurt that a BB "team" is just one guy (the coach), and you're not trying to teach the ins and outs of line technique to a CB who doesn't have any reason to care. So why not make the terminology holistic, right?

[Uldreg]

Matt,

I tried to put what i thougt you were talking about into play creator. Is this the defense you are describing?

[mattgslater]

That's the basic idea, with the line, flank and 303 backfield screen as I described it. The 303 backfield screen in this diagram has proper support, and should be fine.

[Uldreg]

Thanks man. I am just starting to play vamps and wI'll try this d out. Seems like a kicker may be necessary.

[mattgslater]

It's really designed for agility vs. bash. There are other variants on it that mostly require a Side Step player to retain their integrity. For this reason, it works best on elves. A SS'er can manage two squares rather than a square and a half; two of them can lock out the wide route on the far side, letting you use this defense against bash teams that can move the ball, like Orcs or Necromantic. This also generally lets you shunt your backfield to the weak-side of the play.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- xx xx xx|-- -- -- --
-- -- SS --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|xx -- -- xx -- -- SS|-- xx -- --
-- -- -- --|-- xx -- -- xx -- --|-- -- xx --

If you're facing Grab, you need another SS on the LOS, in the 2 or 3 Tech. But rookie Pro Elves against other rookie teams, or young High Elf teams, or just against opponents who don't use Grab, a couple SS'ers can lead to some cool shenanigans. I've seen this used with Necromantic before too, with the interior SS (R3-2) replaced by a Golem (the left-winger, L5-2, is a Ghoul), and a few position shifts. Zombies aren't fast enough to recover on the line, but against a down-men offense it can be pretty cool, because they don't have a lot of options.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- xx xx FG|-- -- -- --
-- -- SS --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- xx -- -- xx -- --|-- xx -- --
-- -- -- --|xx -- -- xx -- -- FG|-- -- SF --

One thing he used to make it work was that his right-hand winger was a ST4 Wight with Stand Firm and Dodge, and he could put Guard on both the R1-2 and R5-2 players. This is pretty much Grab-proof, but a Juggernaut big guy might be able to get through... if he can get in. That's not very important, though, as most offenses shift into backfield cage mode right away against this defense. That's generally the best you can hope for.

Another variant, with three SS or SF players.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- xx xx xx|-- -- -- --
-- -- S? --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|xx -- -- xx -- -- SF|-- -- SS --
-- -- -- --|-- xx -- -- xx -- --|-- xx -- --

Humans can use this stuff too. Stand Firm works just fine to replace SS, except on the wings. The important thing is that you can put fast guys on the left side and hope to bog down the right side.

[Carnis]

I think the best setup is the "brace for impact" for vampires as well. Three thralls on the los, 3 2 squares apart from each other 2 squares behind the LOS. 4 vamps hiding behind them ready to bite/hypno on T1.

Against ag you just do the standard zig, why focus so much on the first turn?