6+6 on Skaven Runner

[Greyhound]

so Smurf, you would have been happy if the Wardancers were ST2 and had a discount in their price?

[grampyseer]

As we've all said: "Do as you will". You won't be able to find a convert amongst the veteran players, and you've offered no argument strong enough to change our opinions.

Best of luck to you. Really, I mean that. I think we'd all love to hear from you over the next couple of years, and see how your play-style changes with experience.

[Smurf]

so Smurf, you would have been happy if the Wardancers were ST2 and had a discount in their price?

I don't see your point. Unless you are advocating all elves ought to be ST2. The Wardancer is the odd one out out of all MA8+ players. IIRC all MA8+ players are ST2 with the exception of the Wardancer and Pro and High Elf catchers.

Of course you could turn all such players into super mobile blitzers.

[JaM]

As we've all said: "Do as you will". You won't be able to find a convert amongst the veteran players, and you've offered no argument strong enough to change our opinions.

Best of luck to you. Really, I mean that. I think we'd all love to hear from you over the next couple of years, and see how your play-style changes with experience.

+1

[TuernRedvenom]

I think what we have here is a classic case which pops up here once in a while. An isolated group of players tend to work out their own view on how to best play the game. We had the same in our group. For 7-ish years we played BB and had our own logic about the game, thinking we were experienced and very good players (and laughing at some of the tactics on message boards). I'm pretty sure at that time I would have agreed +STR on a GR is not worth it (I was young and naive ). Untill some of us started going to tournaments and playing on fumbbl, doing *surprisingly* badly there but picking up a lot of new tactics. The whole hierarchy in the league suddenly changed. Mediochre players, with their new knowledge and insights suddenly rose to the top of the league. Good players that didn't adapt started to struggle.

I can say now that our current worst player would probably beat our best player of 9 years ago.

From what I've read in this thread Smurf's league is in the same situation as we were. Sooner or later someone will discover fumbbl or tourneys and change the league.

I might be very wrong, but 6 passes per game is an absolutely monstrous number and should be extremely easy to counter by an experienced coach who knows what he's doing.

Anyway what is more likely:
* a community of thousands and thousands of players that's been around for almost a decade working out for many ponts the most optimal way to play the game (like, always take +STR on a GR).
* or this same community completely missing the REAL most optimal way of playing the game which some league of a dozen (?) people figured out instead.

I know where my money is, but I don't think any sane bookie would take bets on that.

I think your league will see evolution. More people will pick up pass block, meaning others will adapt their playstyle and notice passing as a base template to score td's is a bad idea altogether. This means pass block will become near useless.

Personally I massively prefer Diving Tackle over Pass Block, because you can use it to shut down receivers and do a whole lot more then Pass Block. It gives you the initiative instead of depending on your opponent to take a certain action (like throwing a pass).

[Rutger]

The way I see it is that Skaven really needs help with the defence.

What is the best way to defend with a fast and weak team?
Answer: Pop the ball loose.

How?
Have kick.
Have a fast ball retreiver.
Have a fast blitzer.

Fast ball retreiver
Normal: Sure hands/big hand, block, leap
Double: VLL
Stat: +AG, +MV

Fast blitzer
Normal: Wrestle, tackle, strip ball
Double: Horns
Stat: +ST, +AG

So if I rolled a +ST I would develope him to a blitzer.
If I rolled a double, I would either develope him into a blitzer (Horns) or a runner/retreiver (VLL/Big hand) depending on the skill set of the other Gutter runners.
Remember, you do have 4 Gutter runners.

Or you could totally ignore this and surprise the other coach with some other skill combination.

[Ullis]

[Before pass block arrived on the pitch i could count about 6 in a normal game (most short or quick till the later games when it gets to long) a hell of a lot more from AG4 players, after pass block maybe 2 but as i said before stopping the pass compleatly is what im after in a pass blocker.

I agree with Tuern here. 6 passes per game is a lot, especially if it seems that they're AG3 teams doing 6 passes and elves doing a lot more.

An AG3 team with Pass on the passer and Catch doing a quick pass (or short pass with Accurate) has an 80 % chance of succeeding (8/9*8/9). Doing six of those babies has a 25 % chance of not turning over at least once. And that's assuming that there's always a reroll from either skills or the team reroll on both the pass and the catch. With elves it's a much more respectable 70 %, but again, with a reroll on every pass and catch.

No team has the skills or the rerolls for that. Humans come closest since they get throwers and catcher with the skills but who on earth would they pass to after they have the ball on a catcher? And no AG3 team really has the need for that either. Doing 6 passes in a game unless you're elves and trying to farm spp's is just simply pointless.

In a pass happy league like that Big Hands would be a good double pick since I assume that the ball spends a lot of time on the pitch.

To finish, what people are arguing here is that for the majority of leagues that play without any weird house rules, +ST is the best pick in terms of effectiveness. And going beyond that, my own guess is that +ST would be the best pick for your league as well.

[spubbbba]

I might be very wrong, but 6 passes per game is an absolutely monstrous number and should be extremely easy to counter by an experienced coach who knows what he's doing.

6 passes a game on average does seem like a lot, I probably do about less than 2 a game and most of them are late or early game spp farming.

I'd be interested to see how many Td's on average are scored a game, a lot of small leagues really frown on stalling and basically bully players into not using that tactic. This does mean that teams tend to try to score as quickly as they can which leads to more turnovers and passes.

It also seriously hampers the slower bashing teams and might explain the 90% win rate.

[Smurf]

Well we are waiting for players to stop the elves from throwing the ball. At present it is a good idea. Of course there are the grinds which end with a 2-1 or 1-0 game.

Normally it is put an elf on a pitch and try and keep up with them. They dominate because people don't take pass block and more over the elves do have passblock.

I think we have aired views and the concensus is go with +ST.

[mattgslater]

That's not why they dominate. Elves are merely competitive here, and nobody takes Pass Block.

[B SIDE]

+ST. 9337 Dodge, Block at 16 - Take +AV on 10's and this guy is a super stud.