Ogre guide

[Carnis]

Ogre QP or SP w/SA to DC Snotling
16.7% to hold on to ball
6.5% to throw inaccurate completion assuming Snotty has no support.
34.7% to throw a Comp
42.1% to turnover

That's about the same odds of maintaining possession as breaking AV on AV7 with Mighty Blow. It's the same odds to complete your pass as breaking AV8 with Mighty Blow.

You should calc it with RRs, that's a bit harsh to not include any RRs at all for the pass. I at least assumed there's no RRs seeing as there's the 1/6 chance of boneheading "hold on to ball" and not 1/36 . (although I wouldnt dare RR the bonehead on such a play).

[mattgslater]

With Ogre teams, I save my RRs for stuff that can get me hurt, like blocking or GFI. I would only use a TRR on an accurate Catch attempt, where it's worth 5/6 of an SPP (in this case), or if there's a TD on the line, like on T7-8. It's not going to change the odds much.

[Carnis]

So you just idly throw balls away when playing ogres?

Certainly, if you go for such a desperation play (ag2 pass), you WILL use a rr for it.

The odds of success are:

2+ bonehead
4+ pass
2+ catch

5/6*1/2*5/6

34,7% no RR.

Then you have, RR bonehead
1/6*5/6*1/2*5/6
+5,7%

Then you have, RR pass
5/6*1/2*1/2*5/6
+17,4%

Then you have, RR catch
5/6*1/2*1/6*5/6
+5,7%

If you sum these up you get p(success)+p(success after rr) = p(success)*11/6

So "it's not going to change the odds much" = the odds of a comp will nearly double.

So odds with RR = 63,6% comp.

[mattgslater]

When do you throw the ball? IME, chucking it is a desperation move, at the end of the turn, and probably late in the half. I think it's silly to assume you'll have a TRR at the time. Since you should when in doubt build from the pessimistic likely assumption, it's more important to know the math without than to know the math with.

[Carnis]

When do you throw the ball? IME, chucking it is a desperation move, at the end of the turn, and probably late in the half. I think it's silly to assume you'll have a TRR at the time. Since you should when in doubt build from the pessimistic likely assumption, it's more important to know the math without than to know the math with.

With that logic, dark elves could never pass. After all it's only a 69% completion .

[narg]

So you just idly throw balls away when playing ogres?

Certainly, if you go for such a desperation play (ag2 pass), you WILL use a rr for it.

Well I'd say both views have merit and in a game both will probably happen. Throwing the ball usually happens late in the half and by that stage you should already have gone through a few rerolls but if you had three or four rerolls to start with and if you were careful on their use you might still have one to spare; I know I'd prefer to let a snotling fail a GFI to keep a reroll for such a play. Or who knows, maybe you just won Brilliant Coaching at kick-off and got a new reroll.

And I think it should be done at the start of a turn, not at the end: when winning or losing the game depends on that touchdown and it's turn 7 or 8, I would definitely start with that, before 2d blocks with non-block ogres for example.

[mattgslater]

With that logic, dark elves could never pass. After all it's only a 69% completion .

Huh? No. I mean, your math is right, but that's not the same thing.

An Ogre throwing a QP to a DC snot has worse odds than one unskilled Elf throwing a Long Pass to another. You wouldn't do that very often, no? Your unskilled Elves, they throw Quick Passes when possible, right? That's 25/36 without a TRR. Your TRRs are 5/6 to work, so they're worth spending. In fact, it's easier than a Leap, a Dodge at -1 or an unskilled 1d block, comparable to a skilled 1/2d block, plus it's unable to hurt your player, secures the ball and earns SPP, so you may even do it with an unspent action or two. So yeah, not a fair comparison in any way, shape or form. Early re-rolls are not for 4+ rolls that don't hurt my guys, unless the difference is probably two TDs (one for, one against). On T6-8, if I have a RR left, I'd do it if it's a TD play.

If the ball is in the hands of an unmarked Ogre, then I'm probably not throwing it, thanks. I'm going downfield, I'm getting my snot-screen and Ogre cage going, and I'm putting the SPP on the guy with skill memory and a progression track larger than one or two skills. If I'm not, that's because it's very late in the game, or because I know I'm doomed next turn and it's the best hope I have. Either way, what are the odds that I have a TRR? It's possible, yes, but that's not the way to bet. I'm not saying you shouldn't calculate and consider those odds, but you have to look at the situation you're in when you do something like that. Yes, it can work. A TRR even pushes it over the 50/50 line. But it's still desperate and dangerous, and means you need to have an Ogre moving from the open to the open without being a ball-carrier.

[narg]

Ok here are a few points that haven't been covered by the guide:
- To foul or not to foul
- What inducements to take
- Peak TV

Which is all kinda inter-related as lower TV gets you more inducements and potentially more bribes...

I've never really fouled with my ogres as a deep bench is really needed just te replace the rapidly disappearing snotlings; I finished my last Ogre game without a single snotling on the pitch and if a couple of them had been sent off it would only have accelerated that. Does anyone out there play them in a fouly way? Is it effective? I've seen a goblin team getting terrific results with fouling but it had lots of bribes and four or five sneaky gits / dirty players...

Re the inducements the goblins have cheap bribes and the halflings have a cheap chef but the ogres don't have anything special. I've taken Brik Farth & Grotty a few times and they're quite good (especially Grotty!). Apart from them are there any inducements that particularly stand out for the ogre team?

And I'm currently debating whether to hire a sixth ogre. Is it worth the increased TV? The TV of an ogre team can quickly spiral out of control even though they never become really great. Is it better to remain the underdog by not taking the sixth ogre and relying on inducements, or should I stop caring about TV and go for the ogre?

[Smurf]

I think if you have an injured snot, he is the missile until he dies. It's funny!

Think I can get a game against them with Steve's Ogres (Mity Clots) against the Blooded Stumps.

[The Golden Arrow]

Definently take the sixth ogre. Ogre teams become so much better with all the ogres on the field it's not even funny. It's better to keep TV down by not having to many skills on snots and not over indulge in rerolls (four rerolls really are enough...) for example. As you said the inducements are not that great either. Bribes can keep a 20k snot on the board for example.... Bloodwiser babes are probably the best bang for buck you can get and star players of course since it lets you play with less snots

[Insane_Prophet]

You definitely want the 6th Ogre. TV bloat is a sad fact of an Ogre Coaches existence, but shouldn't dissuade you from taking the only positional on the team that's any good!

Team Value is best controlled (in my opinion) by the cutting of any non-doubles snotlings who reach three or so skills, and, in a long term format, the replacing of Ogres who fail to roll doubles in their first 3/4 skills. It hurts to do this, but you're trying to maximise the value of each Ogre, which rapidly increases if you can give them Block, Pro or Sure Hands (depending on what exactly you're looking for).

If you haven't done so I'd advise listening to the Tacklezone Radio episode on Ogres, which offers an alternative opinion to the playbook.

[narg]

How do you set up in defense against goblins? I took the 6th ogre but my next opponent has a ST6 troll, another one with block, and will probably take Ripper as inducement (thanks to ogre #6).

Do you bravely put three ogres on the LOS to get them bashed? Or three snotlings instead, but then you're pretty sure to be down at least two players at the end of the first turn? Or six ogres on the LOS in the hope that the opponent will at least think twice about following up on the blocks? Nothing really seems satisfying...

[narg]

How do you set up in defense against goblins?

Ok so as I got no answers I decided to go ahead with the usual strategy of putting three ogres on the LOS and I got two ogres injured, one directly due to a troll and the other caused by a gang-foul after the troll took him down...
I spent most of the game trying to fight the trolls back but I wasn't very successful, goblins are tough opponents for an ogre team. On top of that he had a goblin with diving tackle so it was just a nightmare game...

[trentusdementus]

I coach Ogres and I think you need your snots so I only foul with a sneaky git/dirty player or if Get the Ref was rolled in the kickoff. And if a snot hasn't rolled doubles by skill two, axe him. If one survives to skill four, axe him.

Imo, Tackle is more valuable to Ogre teams than Block. I don't know that I can properly explain why i think so, but there it is. It's all about countering finesse instead of bash. Which the Ogres need more of.

I use two Ogres on the line with a wounded snot between them. Always.