Advice on Skaven Defense

[Norse]

Crap, it looks like we need a Galak intervention here...

[DoubleSkulls]

Ryk is right, you can only do one of blitz, pass & handoff.

Ian

[Deathwing]

Nope..
A Blitz action is not a Pass Action. You can pick it up on a Blitz but you cannot Pass it or Hand it off. They both require separate declared actions.

[Deathwing]

Ryk is right, you can't blitz & pass/handoff anymore.

Ian

Just for the record, you used to be able to hand off, but you never could Blitz and Pass with the same player in the same turn (unless you played the time warp card).

[Norse]

Jesus, I actually know very little about Blood Bowl after all...

anyone for tennis?

[DoubleSkulls]

If you are lucky with a GR you could try for Dauntless, Horns, Block. Then they make awesome blitzers, but this does require 2 doubles so you aren't going to get it that often.

[Norse]

OK, in that case..

Strip Ball as a third skill for your Rat Ogre after Block and Pro (where possible) or Tackle...

Please ignore all previous posts.

I'm going to crawl away now and re-read the rule book...

[Ryk]

The 3rd Edition Skaven teams I played used defensive Gutter Runners to blitz ball carriers quite effectively.

Usually, I'd have 2-3 on the roster at various stages of development along the Dodge, Block, Dauntless, Diving Tackle path. Doubles after Dauntless or Diving Tackle would usually get Horns. Doubles before would get Very Long Legs, then Sprint, to fill the 4th Gutter Runner slot as a one-turner.

Under 3rd Edition rules, they were quite useful at bringing down anything, collecting the ball and getting away for a handoff. And with Stand Firm Storm Vermin and Rat Ogres, they provided a hard line behind the line of scrimmage.

The new rules on Diving Tackle make the skill selection a lot less synergistic, and I'd have to think seriously about what they could use now, but I'd still favour defence oriented skill selection for your Gutter Runners.

Skaven spend most of the game playing defence, and having your best players as an asset not a liability then is important.

Ryk

[bj0rn]

once upon a time my bloodbowl group played without action declaration (happy times)...but nowadays you have to declare what you are doing...cant blitz and throw...cant hand off from a player that has already moved...

bj0rn - ...good old times

[sean newboy]

Getting back to the original point. I like Norse's idea but i would have the other stormvermin back with the ro, the ro wont be helped by the guard but the rest of the team would. My personal advice would be to spread those td's around more, yes Rizk Taker is very nice but your neglecting the rest of your team.

[Zy-Nox]

Its a shame Gutter runners can no longer get Stunty.
A stunted Gutter Runner with Big hand looks very nice to retrieve the ball from multiple TZs

btw,I was joking when I said it was a shame

[Mad Makz]

Just to comment on the above, while knowing the rules, our group usually foregoes action declaration, at least for passing. The logic is that often a passer will have to pick up the ball first, before he can pass, in fact sometimes a HUGE set of conditions have to be accomplished, before he can pass. While failing these will almost undoubtedly cause a turn over, we just feel silly saying "He'll Pass" before he has the ball.

Anyone believe the declaration of actions rule should be reviewed? I understand that it does commit you to certain actions, which is good from a tactical sense, but it's also one of the major things that slows down the game. I mean, having to sit there and work out your entire turn before hand almost, it removes a lot of the spontaniety of the game.

Preferring a more free flowing game we tend to be very lenient on action declaration.

As for the advice, on defence keeping a player back with the ratogre does seem like a good idea, but it does take a lot away from my line of scrimmage. Fortunately with Smakar Skrit getting guard this is less of a problem, so I may try it. Additionally, I was thinking of putting Rizk Takar (GR with Block, Dodge, Side Step) on the Sideline, supported by Smakar Skrit (SV with Block, Guard). That way, I still have two players with block on the scrimmage line, one of which has dodge and sidestep, who will be strength 3 due to the assist. (while the nearby linemen will get the added protection of strength 4)

I am less interested in what skills to give my players than how to use them as they are. Gaining skills isn't really anything you can have great control over (though I agree Rizk Takar at 16SPP's after 3 games with no MVP's has had more than his fair share of the action).

Also, in my previous games I was under the mistaken impression that ratogres couldn't assist at ALL, Rather than just not being able to assist. This has made me over commit to the line of scrimmage(both offensively and defensively) and be wary of putting them in the back lines with another player (thinking a single strength 4 blitzer would still be able to take out my SV with no assist, leaving the rat ogre to be distracted by rushing in a sacrificial lineman to an adjacent square).

Realising my mistake I may keep the rat ogre back in defense, especially as Smakar can now bolster the line of scrimmage.

And I'll try to get other GR's the ball to score, it's just that they always seem to drop it, or fail to go for it, whereas Rizk Takar always seems to succeed.

[Ryk]

I am less interested in what skills to give my players than how to use them as they are.

Makz,

To give you advice on that, it would be helpful to know the defensive sets you're using.

For what it's worth, my advice on Skaven defensive sets is:
a) Play three down on the line, and no more. With Armour Value 7, you want to avoid being hit, especially by 2 die blocks, as much as possible.
b) Use Linerats, not Storm Vermin or Rat Ogres, at the Line of Scrimmage. Skill and strength players are too valuable to be so easily targeted on your opponent's first turn.
c) Use Storm Vermin, Rat Ogres, Gutter Runners and Block Linerats to build a seriously hard secondary. Playing them off the line means only one can be targeted with a blitz, and also you are more easily able to take advantage of their speed to deploy them where you need them on your first defensive turn.

With the current Wild Animal rules, you may want to change that so that your Rat Ogres play at the back of the secondary as a free safety.

You should also accept that you are going to be scored on. Skaven are scored on. Your object should be to outscore your opponent. Hopefully by pressuring his ball carriers into turnovers of possession, which you can turn into defensive touchdowns.

I notice you're sitting in the top half of the league, with more wins than losses. So, I guess you're not doing too badly.

Ryk

[Mad Makz]

Certainly, I am doing ok, but I am looking to cut down the swathes of points scored against me. I know, as Skaven, this is difficult, but as I have had the MOST points scored against me, and my next few matches are up against other top of the table teams, I need to shut down the oppositions scoring ability if I am to guarantee myself a spot in the semis.

Every other game, I play for fun, winning is secondary to the game. Blood Bowl however, well, I want to do well. I respect a close game, and luck can always go against you and cause a loss (for example the opponent scoring first in the second half to get ahead, and then a riot ending the game.) but I want the Foul Peak Freaks to be top of the table, so any and all advice is needed.

I am a bit dubious about setting up Lineman to get trounced, If I commit to the line of scrimmage, early in the game, then my opponent has to also otherwise risk me beating up on his players and getting the edge numbers wise. Later in the game, especially if I am ahead, you are probably right, but early on I think a strong line of scrimmage will give me the edge.

After all, as you said, I will get scored against, but If I can pummel a few players BEFORE he scores it makes getting the return, then forcing the error later on, that much easier.

[Ryk]

I am a bit dubious about setting up Lineman to get trounced, If I commit to the line of scrimmage, early in the game, then my opponent has to also otherwise risk me beating up on his players and getting the edge numbers wise. Later in the game, especially if I am ahead, you are probably right, but early on I think a strong line of scrimmage will give me the edge.

After all, as you said, I will get scored against, but If I can pummel a few players BEFORE he scores it makes getting the return, then forcing the error later on, that much easier.

Defensively, whoever you set up on the Line is going to get trounced.

Your opponent has the advantage of setting his offence after you set your defence. This allows him to apply numerical and strength advantages in places where he can obtain 2 dice blocks against whoever you choose as down linemen.

Personally, I'd much rather have my strength and skill players blitzed against than blocked, especially when those blocks will be 2 dice against.

Offensively, yes, commit as much as you need to at the Line of Scrimmage, and commit strength and skill there.

But defensively, you're just asking for your storm vermin to be on the ground or off the pitch.

Ryk