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Cheap rerolls and Dodge are their only strengths. As stated above.
Literally, I went through this point by point with my friend one time. And we came to the concurrant conclusion that -- as stated above -- ALL Amazons have going for them is Dodge and cheap rerolls, and you want to take one of those AWAY?
Sure, they get quick Blodgers...but that involves Linewomen getting 6 SPP. Which isn't that easy on a 6/3/3/7 player, without dying. Half my Linewomen got theirs from getting that 5 SPP MVP. Heck, more than one of my players only got their first skill from double-MVPing.
The Linewomen don't got alot to go on (...mmm...6/3/3/7 Dodge...bottom-of-the-barrel sucky...) to get those early SPPs, so unless you're lucky (or your opponents really suck) you'll have trouble taking them to 6 SPP and getting Blodge.
I'd just like to note OTly that I almost killed a Minotaur last night. Too bad that stupid Apothecary succeeded. I'd've been so gloating if I killed that Block-wielding Minotaur.
6/3/3/7 Dodge is not "bottom-of-the-barrel sucky" when you've only got pay 50k. Ghouls, which I think are some of the most efficient players in the game, cost 70k. For that 20k, they get agility access and 1 MV but can't use apothecaries. I don't think Agility access is worth too much for a player who starts with Dodge anyway.
I haven't played Amazons yet, but I'm sure my linewomen would get SPPs because I wouldn't have any throwers until the rest of the roster is purchased. Many of the first completions and possibly TDs will be earned by the line. I play a low agility game by nature.
Acerak wrote:So we have a middling team, with no above-average stats, a few nice (but overpriced) players, they do pretty well if they avoid a punch-up before coaches start giving their players Tackle, they have no Big Guy and they didn't get any extra position players to account for this...and they're overpowered?
I'm trying to establish an opinion whether they are overpowered. As I haven't personally seen them being played. It appears that despite the fact that they've done well in so many leagues they are not considered to be overpowered.
Very well, I shall see how they'll do in our league in the next season. I'll have a better opinion by then.
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[url=http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3460]-[/url]Teemu
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The problem with Amazons is they are hard to get a grip on.. against any non-tackle team, they score well and can defend well by using intelligent blitzes.
Problem is... you get no SPPs for dodging.. They may perform well initially in a league, but they progress more slowly as they have no real chance to pick up casualty generating skills...
Other teams can either score more highly (Skaven or Elf) or get more casualties (Chaos, Dwarf, Orc etc).. so Amazons might find the going slow..
Even when a player picks up a skill or 2, that AV7 means she will get a NI fairly quickly and be less reliable.. A good short term team, fair in the medium term, but poor in the long term I think.
Unlike my Dwarves...
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I think in response to a few of you, the reason amazon rerolls are so cheap is that their position players are so expensive. It's pretty insane what they play for blitzers really. I'd probably be for increasing their MA by one. I think that's all I'd do to either team.
I also think that whoever it was that said that the basic human team needs help has never played a basic human team. They have the flexibility to alter their playstyle to fit the opponent. They can pound on elves, and they can pass against chaos. In many ways they have the best of both worlds, kinda like orcs.
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Amazons don't need extra movement on anyone. Amazons are a funny team to price. According to my latest computer numbers, the linewoman should be around 55k, the catchers around 65k, the throwers around 65k, and the blitzers around 85k. So, what happens you have a full team? Let's add up the price differences:
2*5k + 2*5k + 4*5k - 8*5k = 0k
The position players might be overpriced, but it balances nicely with the line. If you were to take my style of starting team, with no throwers or catchers, you'd benefit even more from the price differences.
I'm not that concerned with the Norse balance. I think making the line cost 10k more and giving out strength skills all around would make them a little more fun, but they don't need it. The Amazons, though, from all testing indications, seem to be a little too good. In a rookie vs. rookie match, they don't fall over much, and that's tough to deal with for a lot of coaches. I'm hoping that coaches get a little more practice against them and start to learn how to beat them.
This is making me think of Chet's Amazon Master Plan. It's an idea that's been running around in my head for awhile that I don't take seriously. Maybe it's time to express it.
Chet's Amazon Master Plan
If you were to take a look at some online discussions made by the BBRC recently, you'd find that there's talk of removing injury roll modifiers, removing IGMEOY, and allowing re-rolls, including Pro, to affect armour rolls again. Is this really to improve the game, or is it something more sinister?
As some of us should already know, Chet, a member of the BBRC, often uses an Amazon team. He almost never loses, which bothers him. He'd like to remove the almost. So, Chet has come up with a Master Plan to make the Amazons better. It doesn't even involve changing the roster.
Amazons have really cheap re-rolls. In fact, they're so cheap, that you could easily buy more than you should need with the current rules. So, Chet thought, why not re-roll armour rolls? If re-rolls become more useful, the Amazons have more of an advantage.
But, oh, that Armour 7 can earn you quite a beating sometimes. Players with skills like Mighty Blow can really take advantage. So, why not Mighty Blow and Piling On weaker? And who needs Really Sharp Claws? The Amazons don't, that's for sure.
It's really hard to cause lots of injuries with the Amazons. Fouling tends to be your only viable option. Oh, but the ref can be such a pain nowadays! We'll have to remove him. Chet will gladly forgo +1 on the armour roll to get twice as many fouls.
And then there's Pro. Pro needs improvement, Chet says. Wouldn't it be great if every lineman with general skills could again take Pro for those armour rolls? Yes, it would be great for those linemen. But there are only a few of them on a typical Orc team, only a few on a Human team, and none at all on Dwarfs or Chaos. Who would benefit? The Amazons, of course. Oh, and don't forget, if Block and Pro are the #1 and #2 skills, no one will have Tackle! Suddenly Dodge is even better!
But, Chet says it doesn't matter if a few teams get a little worse or better because of his changes. Unless a team simply can't compete, he doesn't care. Why should he? As long as his pet team gets better, he's happy.
I hope people can tell the difference between the Master Plan and a real stab at Chet. Buried in a thread like this, no one will read it anyway, right?
Amazons aren't exactly my "pet team," unless you mean "one of those pets that sniffs your crotch or rubs ferociously on your leg at the wrong moment"
And, umm, I almost never lose. With any team. Period
In all seriousness, though, TRR cost might be an issue. I don't think Amazons are a great long-term team, for reasons given. But if TRR costs ever change, I'd expect a move to a 50/60/70 scheme for the boxed teams. And that means Amazons could one day bump themselves up to 50K, but expect Dwarfs to go with them. (Seriously, let's talk about a team that's great short and long term and has insanely cheap re-rolls...)
My Amazons seem to be doing much better in the late-season, but I couldn't tell you cross-season how well they'd do. Though if the string of not-Amazon player deaths continues I'd probably have the highest TR by next season.
at present, they are reliable and difficult to face, but they don't win all that often... I seem to have picked up grinding draws a lot recently!
I see Dwarves getting cheap re-rolls because they train hard and really, really want to win, but they will never overcome their obvious physical deficiencies.
I'll make a deal here, if anyone can point to any tournament where Dwarves won the whole thing, then I'll back a claim to increase RR cost...
Otherwise your just bitching...
I have no probs with Amazons as they are, but I would rather all human teams were more closely aligned to each other in a 6 3 3 8 kind of way for the purpose of continuity...
Leave Dwarves alone..... or else!
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I think Amazons are fine except that in most leagues teams have avoided taking tackle. That means that Amazons are running around without a counter team unless there happens to be a dwarf team.
I've been in favour of adding a Kislev team into the game where all the linemen start with tackle. The team would be primarily defensive in nature and so other players would have shadowing and pass block. You get the idea.
If such a team become popular then amazons bite would be reduced.... but then I feel like I'm falling into the GW trap of making a team to beat another one...
I haven't found amazons to be all that powerful. Their biggest asset is the number of blodge players they can field early. A good player will make you suffer with those blodge players. Another good player will find a way around them. I think they balance quite nicely. Some teams have massive armour, some teams all have thick skull, some teams have AG4 everywhere. I haven't seen a frustrating lack of balance.
On Dwarven Reroll Costs
Norse: Shane won one of the WPS tournaments (may have even been 2) and he plays nothing but dwarves. I still think the rerolls on a dwarf team are alright where they are. They fit the flavour of the team and, frankly, they never bloody use them anyway.
On Chet's Master Plan
I've been giving the removal of + to injury a lot of thought and I'm of the opinion that it won't impact the viability of Power teams nearly as much as has been suggested. I think what it will remove is the ability of murder teams to really ruin your league. You don't need a high number of casualties to win with a Power team. You just need to knock them to the ground and keep them there. You can certainly do that with rerolls to armour.
neoliminal wrote:I think Amazons are fine except that in most leagues teams have avoided taking tackle. That means that Amazons are running around without a counter team unless there happens to be a dwarf team.
Interesting. In the last few leagues I've played in most teams (esp power teams) have all taken ~4 tacklers, mainly to counter the profileration of blodgers.
As stated above.
Too bad that stupid Apothecary succeeded. I'd've been so gloating if I killed that Block-wielding Minotaur.
