Lizards team tactics help

[Larris]

Thanks juck, your advice is welcome.

I wondered if you might further clarify a couple of your points for me:

The defensive formation you outline seems to be pretty traditional, but I confess I have some difficulty envisioning just how your preferred setup looks like - how much air between each player on the LOS, for instance.

Could you perhaps please take the time to post an ASCII schematic of your suggested play, so that we might review and discuss it?

Also, which part of the process of setting up a screen do you consider to be the hardest for new coaches? The opening of a hole or the running and dodging? I'm not certain what you mean exactly when you caution against "protecting the ball AND picking it up turn one". However, I clearly see the good sense in eschewing GFIs on important turns.

I'm afraid my own inexperience leaves me in the dark as to when to play a conservative turn and when to go full on. (BTW, "On the best tactics post for chaos?") Maybe this knowledge can only be acquired through practice, but a few pointers would have been helpful nonetheless.

Thanks in advance.

[Qlars]

Let's continue this discussion. As a lizard player I need all the help I can get!

[Larris]

Hi Qlars! I'm very pleased to continue the discussion.

I saw that Nazgit already had advised you in the skills picking department, so let's dwell on that for a while.

I would have to agree with him that Break Tackle does look like a magnificient way to enable the Sauri to employ their unrivalled potential velocity. Otherwise their MV 6 all too often gets tied down in hostile TZs since one very rarely would risk dodging attempts with an AG 1 player. (On a side note, Stand Firm seems like a good double roll skill choice, as noted in another recent thread.)

However, Break Tackle seems to me like a skill mainly for offense. The luxury of protecting the ball carrying skink with Sauri is one that Lizardman coaches should indulge in as often as practically permittable. Similarly, increased liberty to leave lineman TZs in order to to mark (or blitz) enemy blitzers with a Saurus or two could go a long way in minimizing potential threats to the little skinks.

On defense, OTOH, I would argue that Block is the better skill choice of the two. When one plays a match against an agile and/or dodgy team, Break Tackle is usually mostly good for the sole blitz action. As for using Sauri for pressuring ball carriers, I would view the skinks as just as well suited for the task, if not better (superior MV + Dodge/Stunty means better chance of reaching the target). Sure, there's a greater risk that the skinks will be knocked down in the next opponent turn, but for the most part they'll only be pushed back anyway.

The Sauri, considering their slow advancement rate, are far more likely to face Block-skilled ball protectors than the skinks are of meeting opponent Tacklers. Thus, even assuming that the blocking player foolishly allows the Saurus the choice of dice, I'd say that overall the Sauri are at a disadvantage having Break Tackle in this situation as compared to Block.

Now, with Block the Sauri often can't even move away from their opponent TZs to apply the pressure that Nazgit was talking about, that's true. (Unless they pull off some clever teamwork to free at least one of them, that is.) Nevertheless, Block is so very important in order to gain the next 10 SPPs. I'd say it'll go almost 50% quicker with Block than without, not counting skills like Frenzy or Mighty Blow (the improvement rate for the respective skills may be calculated by those so inclined).

There is also the simple fact that the Sauri will not fall over nearly as often when making blocks, which means that they now may block at liberty with reduced risk of causing turnovers/burning re-rolls.

That said, I do like the thought of Break Tackle on Sauri. I would not want them all to get it, though, in fact I don't think even half of my Saurus squad will pick Break Tackle for their first skill.

Onto skill choices for the skinks: Laerderon mentioned Catch as first skill, then Side Step. Catch is neccessarily most useful when receiving. Side Step is, like Block, good either way, possibly best during kicking drives. (I have seen some skinks going with Sure Feet and/or Sprint, which appealed to me initially, but I have since changed my mind.)

Now, could some skinks perhaps take another skill than Catch first, in the interest of strengthening the defensive plays? Diving Tackle seems reasonably popular in conjunction with Side Step, but I wouldn't think it would make a good first pick skill.

And indeed Side Step itself isn't half bad for a first pick skill. But except foregoing the defensive part to some degree, the only downside I can think of against starting a skink's skill progression with Catch is this: The catcher skink would then be much more apt to score future touchdowns than the rest of his spawning brood, thereby in turn slowing their SPP accumulation.

Although I'm certain you'd appreciate more practical&tactical advice for your new team (Saurus skills still being some way off), discussing specific plays will have to wait until another time, I'm afraid.

Disclaimer: I could just be preaching BS here. Please understand that my views and opinions at this point are based on theory (and watching countless Lizardman matches on FUMBBL) more than actual practice and experience. In other words, I'm very interested in help as well. And Nazgit, feel free to explain to me if/how/why I'm wrong.

[juck101]

sorry been a while since I looked here....

ok formation vs just about anything

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xSxx|SxxxxxS|xxSx
xTxx|TxxxxxT|xxTx

(key is bold K- krox
bold S - Saurus
bold T -skink



yeah that looks ok to me. Basic idea is 3 on line as they will get hit however many you stack. One line gap to neagte quick snap. Then saurus in widezones and inner coloum to prevent any blitz on a skink. Absolute must dont get a skink hit on a cheap hit turn one if you can help it. Maybe weakness in centre but too be honest if a team sits in your centre you can swarm them no problem.

Real major plan is too not let anything past and alows your saurus to hit back. Never let someone have an easy block on a skink if you can help it. Not always just because you dont want to loose them, but more because if you are 3 men down that will put pressure on the saurus and you may end up getting them injured as well.

[Larris]

thank you for the detailed formation, juck!

ok formation vs just about anything

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xSxx|SxxxxxS|xxSx
xTxx|TxxxxxT|xxTx

(key is bold K- krox
bold S - Saurus
bold T -skink

Right, got it. No big surprises there, it's a reasonably popular one.

I have seen some similar formations where the skinks are placed more like this (from memory):

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxSx|SxxxxxS|xSxx
xxxx|xxxTxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xTxxxTx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxTxxx|xxxx

What could be said for and against such a setup compared to your preferred formation? A weaker second Saurus line traded for better skink protection, or the versatility of deploying the entire skink quartet to plug any hole on one of the flanks?

To me it seems like a bit of a waste of skink speed and dodge capabilities. Any thoughts?

Now, assuming you want to play for higher stakes, e.g. you're one down someway out in the second half; you decide to take a chance on the opponent failing a pickup or a hand-off/pass and you want to put up a screen on the opponents half, what changes could be made to the standard setup?

[Laerderon]

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xTSx|xxxxxxx|xSTx
xxxx|TSxxxST|xxxx

That's mine. Having Sidestep Skinks in the second row will give you the opportunity to react better to failed pick ups or similar points (sidestep / sure hands). Also, it's better versus teams like Scaven. In offense you may be able to blitz a one turner, if fielded (therefore having skinks with sidestep, block is great), in defense skinks with sidestep / diving tackle are great. Having Block Sauri (later Block / Break Tackle) on the LoS and Guard Sauri for the Skinks in the second row, maybe even third row makes it a nearly perfect lineup for Lizards.

Sure, on offence you will change slightly. One skink for taking the ball, the other of the third row in the middle behind the Krox or between the deeper sauri. Depending on your enemy maybe even two Sauri for the sidelines. Something like

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xSSx|xxxTxxx|xSSx
xxxx|TxxxxxT|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxTxxx|xxxx

or maybe the two skinks in the 3rd row also in the 2nd row.

[Larris]

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xTSx|xxxxxxx|xSTx
xxxx|TSxxxST|xxxx

That's mine. Having Sidestep Skinks in the second row will give you the opportunity to react better to failed pick ups or similar points (sidestep / sure hands).

Very interesting. Just what I was looking for. Granted, the opportunity to field a fully developed "super seven" contingent (all Sauri+Kroxigor) still lies in the future for many rookie Lizardman teams, including mine. But Laerderon, earlier in this thread you mentioned that you started out your DragonGuard team with the same roster mix as Bizzy. I'll repeat it here for the sake of convenience:

4 Sauri
7 skinks
8 Fan Factor
3 Rerolls

I'm shamelessly copying this recipe for our own league and am naturally curious about whether your initial defensive formations differed in any big way from the one outlined above? (OK, no Krox could be construed as a "big difference", but hopefully you see what I mean.)

Sure, on offence you will change slightly. One skink for taking the ball, the other of the third row in the middle behind the Krox or between the deeper sauri. Depending on your enemy maybe even two Sauri for the sidelines. Something like

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xSSx|xxxTxxx|xSSx
xxxx|TxxxxxT|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxTxxx|xxxx

or maybe the two skinks in the 3rd row also in the 2nd row.

Now that IS interesting - I'd almost instinctively prepare a flank attack as opposed to a symmetrical formation when receiving. Do you perhaps consider this setup to be more flexible and/or robust against kick-off results like Blitz! or Perfect Defence, or is there some other reason behind it? (I ask because the match record of your team looks awesome, so the opinions of its coach are highly valued, Laerderon. </flattery> )

What do you other coaches think about this? Asymmetry or balance on offensive drives?

[juck101]

The set up is pretty normally governed more by the offense it will face. My basic bland set up is good vs sides without st4. A more bash team can plough down the centre, - take out 2saurus with guards - hit krox with big guy = whole. Then a lone skink behind is asking for a blitz and you have an issue...

Equally if a side is depleted i would be tempted to line up in row behind the scrim for the other 8 players- and pressure them next turn. Granted you wont have kick skill but skinks can just skip right on through and hassle a runner/thrower.

A lizard team is proabably the best to blitz with as you can flood the field and get a 2d blitz to make a hole. So again if I need a blitz to win, or they are depleted I would be more tempted to set up to my advantage next turn, far more making a solid wall. Possibly cheeky but against some team if you stack your defense they will have to line up on one side... then pray for a perfect defense or blitz and you will have just ruined thier plan (not 100% lizard but works well hehe)

____________
Vs a strength side I would get tighter and keep a sarus behind the scrim line fighters- that will stop most people following up if they block you down. Keep it real tight and wait with the skinks - when they can run round the back - go pressure

[Laerderon]

Laerderon, earlier in this thread you mentioned that you started out your DragonGuard team with the same roster mix as Bizzy. I'll repeat it here for the sake of convenience:

4 Sauri
7 skinks
8 Fan Factor
3 Rerolls

I'm shamelessly copying this recipe for our own league and am naturally curious about whether your initial defensive formations differed in any big way from the one outlined above? (OK, no Krox could be construed as a "big difference", but hopefully you see what I mean.)

With a new team it's slightly different On offence, you will change the Krox with a Skink and have a combination of Skink/Sauri at the sidelines. On defence, having 3 Sauri at the LoS, 2 Skinks at each sideline and a deeper Sauri for blitzing those guys breaking through sidelines. The point of doing well with a new lizard team is imho putting tacklezones with your skinks. Sure, they will get hurt, but versus new teams they will have burned their RR very early and the way is wide open for you.

Sure, on offence you will change slightly. One skink for taking the ball, the other of the third row in the middle behind the Krox or between the deeper sauri. Depending on your enemy maybe even two Sauri for the sidelines. Something like

xxxx|xSxKxSx|xxxx
xSSx|xxxTxxx|xSSx
xxxx|TxxxxxT|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxTxxx|xxxx

or maybe the two skinks in the 3rd row also in the 2nd row.

Now that IS interesting - I'd almost instinctively prepare a flank attack as opposed to a symmetrical formation when receiving. Do you perhaps consider this setup to be more flexible and/or robust against kick-off results like Blitz! or Perfect Defence, or is there some other reason behind it? (I ask because the match record of your team looks awesome, so the opinions of its coach are highly valued, Laerderon. </flattery> )

What do you other coaches think about this? Asymmetry or balance on offensive drives?

Balance. Depends on your team. Sure, with slow teams it's the better way to form a cage, in which way you have to go for one side, hopeing for a good kick off. With lizards, I go for balance. Your skinks are fast enough to change sides. You can break through on both sides, keeping the ball carrying skink in a small cage right behind your sauri/krox at the LoS. In your next turn you see what your opponent did. Maybe he blitzed one side, put a tz on the other side. So you have 2 possibilities... Blitzing the tacklezone , running with your ball carrier, hand off, scoring, or keeping the cage and moving forward, waiting for a better opportunity.

With asymmetry, your opponent always knows, what you are going to do. You can't react to those nasty kick off events. You can't play that flexible.

[Larris]

If this isn't a treasure trove of a tactics thread...

Vs a strength side I would get tighter and keep a sarus behind the scrim line fighters- that will stop most people following up if they block you down. Keep it real tight and wait with the skinks - when they can run round the back - go pressure

Yeah! Could you perhaps illustrate how you'd change your setup in order to get it tighter? Looks like the standard formation makes it fairly difficult to get more than two skinks through a hole, too.

On defence, having 3 Sauri at the LoS, 2 Skinks at each sideline and a deeper Sauri for blitzing those guys breaking through sidelines

Again with the lurking Saurus in the depths? Good stuff. I've already tried this, in fact. The possibility of screening would be improved with this setup too, I should think.

In your next turn you see what your opponent did.

Ah, now this is key information. I always started executing my planned offensive play already from the kick-off, but this is obviously a better way. Capitalizing on superior Lizardman flexibility! I'll jot that down in my playbook.

[Larris]

Back, with some interesting observations.

I decided to make a real playbook, so I headed over to FUMBBL with the intent to collect more defensive setups from other Lizardman teams and renaming them for myself. (all right, so I was stealing shamelessly. I admit it. )

While writing down a couple of scores' worth of schematics, I also noted a somewhat surprising truth. Considering the sheer variety of possible formations, each coach would still follow a distinctly recognisable pattern for his team, even when not using formations previously stored in the Java client. This didn't even seem to vary much when facing bashy teams or agile teams, or whether the team was developed or a rookie one.

Even more surprising was the difference between coaches in the emphasis they place on a shallow, broad wall-like defense as opposed to a more narrow one, with a skink swarm and/or a deep Saurus sweeper. For example, consider these two:

Code: Select all

15
xxxx|xxSLSxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxLx|LxxxxxL|xLxx
xSxx|xLxxxLx|xxSx

Tinkywinky bike flank strength 3-4-4 rookie defense - good for screening.

Code: Select all

35
xxxx|SxxSxxS|xxxx 
xxSx|xxxxxxx|xSxx
xxxx|xxxSxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|LLxLxLL|xxxx

Cloggy reverse anchor deep defense A

And then look at these:

Code: Select all

27
xxxx|xSSxSSx|xxxx 
xxxx|LxxxxxL|xxxx
xxxx|xxxLxxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxSxSxx|xxxx 
xxxx|xxLxLxx|xxxx

Soulna headless human deep rookie defense

Code: Select all

45
xxxx|xxSSSxx|xxxx
xxxx|xxxxxxx|xxxx
xxxx|SLxxxLS|xxxx
xxxx|LxxLxxL|xxxx
xxxx|xxxLxxx|xxxx

Minionuk narrow fortress intermediate defense

Foregoing deployment of defensive players in the wide zones kind of goes contrary to my instincts, but it has shown itself to be effective in a number of cases.

So I did some more research, and discovered a very interesting FUMBBL forum thread addressing this apparently controversial subject:
Leaving your flanks open

What do you think? Opinions from Lizardman coaches and others are very welcome.

*bump*, incidently.

[Chairface]

Interesting article Larris. Thanks!

[Brokje]

I have already started out trying it!

[Ravage]

very good reading. truthfully, i dont know if i have EVER played a coach that didnt protect the widezones (then again, i may just not have thought much of it at the time). I'm going to have to try this tactic in my local league and see how much it messes with my opponents' heads (and see how effective it might be at the same time!)

[Chairface]

I have already started out trying it!

What have you found?